healers having trouble on Firemaw

Pane · 11/24/06, 2:15 AM

Allrighty; since I believe this is not the kind of place where people say "L2P noob" and also lots of very experienced players hang out here, I'd like to sketch my (guilds) problem and ask for some advice.

My guild struggles with Firemaw. I mean really struggles; We've never had a comfort kill there (only boss where this is the case; we're in phase 2 of nefarian).

our problem is that us healers are having a very hard time keeping the tanks up. It (to me) seems everyone is pretty much spam-healing, and still we lose them to spikes.

our set up is as follows; MT backs into the corner of the little lefthand-side gate, 7 MT healers line up so they dont' get hit by the debuffs/shadowflames. OT's stand behind Firemaw's left back leg, and the (7) offtank healers line up so that they are safe from the debuff/sf.

our tanks are maxed or close to max on FR. we know that "shadowflame inc" means start casting the big heal.

what happens most, is that offtanks get wasted, and in the ensuing confusion (MT eats too many wingbuffets etc) chaos starts building to the point where wiping starts.

since we know the basics, I'd like to hear how people who farm this lizard solidly perform the execution.

how many offtanks do you use? is there such a thing as too many offtanks? and why?
do you use healing rotation? if so; how many healers can keep up the MT reliably while the rest regens? feels like we need all 7 at the moment but I know that's probably not the case.
I've assigned priests and shamans on 'flash heal' duty, and druids on big heals. druids also make sure there's an instant heal ready at all times. is this a good way of doing it? (assuming 'balanced' raid of 5 per class)
is this a strategy problem, or do our woes point at some weak players in certain classes? if the latter; is there a way of singling them out reliably?

it really feels like 'we're doing it wrong'. but I can't pin it down. hlep!

Falk · 11/24/06, 2:24 AM

Tanks die on Firemaw when a too-high stack synergizes with a Shadowflame. One MT and one OT (in the positions you described) in maximum FR ought to keep the fire debuff levels manageable.

A druid doing a swiftmend cycle of a rejuvenation 10s after a shadowflame and swiftmend right after the next one will more or less nullify shadowflame spikes. Until WoW 2.0 hits, mods like NECB reign supreme for timing instant heals, as it shows shadowflame casts in extremely precise timing.

I'd say 3-4 healers on the offtank should be sufficient. He should be eating buffets only before MT Firemaw back anyways.

How is your offtank dying? Slow death? Debuff stacking too high?

Kenco · 11/24/06, 2:27 AM

Are the off tanks going out of Firemaw's LOS after a wing buffet? If they run around the corner after the wing buffet then come back 10 seconds before the next one, they will have no problems with the flame buffet.

Masq · 11/24/06, 2:28 AM

7 Healers for the offtanks is FAR too much.

We use 2-3 (Druid or Priest) for offtank healing, and the other healers are not in LOS healing the MT.

Pane · 11/24/06, 2:33 AM

Originally Posted by falkon2

How is your offtank dying? Slow death? Debuff stacking too high?

we have 3 or 4 offtanks, standing behind him all the time, only running out if the stack is HIGH.. after your and the other posts I'm beginning to suspect here may be (one of) the issue(s).

I feel enlightened already and it's only been like 50 seconds since my post :P

I'll be monitoring closely what you guys have to say; many thanks

Thelyna · 11/24/06, 2:39 AM

Make sure you have 3 tanks in 315 buffed FR - MT, OT and a backup - the backup should be conversant with either role and ready to step in if anything goes wrong (I know of strats that involve the MT being taunted off of, in effect creating a new MT. if he gets a 20+ stack of buffet (old MT goes and hides around the corner). One unresisted taunt and your backup tank is instantly up with threat levels - use that and abuse that.

Oh, if you're not already, flasking tanks is an easy (but slightly expensive) way to increase their survivability.

As stated, 7 OT healers is far too many, 4 is enough. Put the remainder of those healers on the MT, DPS should receive no healing on this fight (it might make things a wee bit faster, but they also have to wait out debuff stacks and might as well bandage in the meantime).

Offtanks being wasted sounds bizarre, assuming they run to the safe spot behind the door any time they're not needed, they shouldn't take much damage at all in this fight aside from when they taunt off.

edit: 3-4 offtanks? No no no. One offtank, one backup, rest of your warriors DPSing in FR gear ready to jump in if needed. 3-4 offtanks all getting stacks of flame buffet and needing to be topped up? Eek. Assuming your MT/OT are both at 315 FR, 20+ stacks of the buffet should be rare, and in those cases get your backup tank to taunt their way in and the tank with 20+ stacks goes and hides till it wears off. Your OT will resist taunt occasionally, but as long as your MT doesn't suck at threat generation, him eating one or two wing buffets isn't a major issue.

panic · 11/24/06, 2:55 AM

I raid with a priest as well, I've found a good mod is Healsync (I'd find a link, but we're overquota and I'm getting impatient) - basically this mod will help you see if your healers are in sync - this could be causing your OT damage spikes.

My old guild used to have 4-5 healers on offtanks, and our offtanks would go in two teams of two (Aussie lag), when one team had too many debuffs they would sit out till they wore off, while the other team took on the taunt rotation. MT healing consisted of a heal rotation of two groups with a Priest, Druid and Shammy.

levk · 11/24/06, 3:10 AM

If your MT is UD female (or a gnome), he could be out of LOS of his healers on some of the punts. Winterfall firewater would help with that. It sounds silly, but I had more problems with this when we have a human female MT rather than a human male.

7 OT healers too much, already covered.

You say your OTs are standing behind him - this is new for me; we always had 1 OT standing in the closed doorway opposite side of main tank. It seems to me every wingbuffet you OTs would get punted back and you'd have to run around to reposition him. If your OT has his back against the wall he won't get punted and Firemaw never moves. I had a good diagram for this fight but I can't find it anymore.

Here's a picture of the room, however it doesn't show our tank/offtank spots:

http://www.elaijt.com/Kelldorain/BWLGuides/fm_1.jpg

(just some pic I got from typing firemaw on google image search)

The correct spot for MT is the corner to his right - move yellow dot to the center of the picture and up a little bit. OT is the opposite side of the gated doorway - move the green dot right. So if Firemaw's looking at your MT, he's at 12 o'clock, your OT is at 3 o'clock. MT healers are in the suppression room, OT healers in the hiding spot. Now the OT healers have to find a spot where they're in LOS of the OT, but out of LOS of Firemaw. It doesn't look like such a spot exists from the picture, but trust me it's there.

edit:

FOUND IT!

http://www.anikki.com/share/wow/bwl_firemaw.jpg

(posted on thottbot)

On the subject of your MT dying - some people push contingiencies for high debuff stacks like switching the tanks out, we never did that, it only complicates the fight for no real reason, better to just make sure you keep the MT you have alive and in case he does die, another warrior has to know where the tank spot is and how to position him. Eventually your MT gears up and won't be dying anymore. Even if you don't want to flask the MT, cheaper hp methods are always there, use them.

RK · 11/24/06, 3:11 AM

Originally Posted by Pane

what happens most, is that offtanks get wasted, and in the ensuing confusion (MT eats too many wingbuffets etc) chaos starts building to the point where wiping starts.

You're losing off-tanks despite having what most people would agree is too many healers on the off-tank and not enough on the MT (we run 4 healers on the off-tank and they still spend half their time healing the DPS). As such, I know what your problem is.

Your off-tank healers need to improve their reflexes (any of my guild reading that just broke down laughing, I'm sure).

Besides a HoT, and a few small heals if flame buffet stacks up, off-tank healers have exactly one job: be ready to heal big at wing buffet time.

If your off-tank healers wait to see the spike before they start healing the off-tank, it's too late. They need to be aware of when the off-tank is going to get aggro and start queing the heals. This goes double if a shadowflame is due even close to wing buffet time.

As long as you have a couple of healers who are on the ball and have heals incoming on the off-tank every time he's going to be taking hits (even for a second), you're golden since he won't get insta-gibbed. In that case, 4 off-tank healers is enough and you can have more on the MT and stretch healer regen less. If no-one is already casting a heal when the off-tank gets aggro, you risk tank death no matter how many healers are sitting there waiting to cast.

I've assigned priests and shamans on 'flash heal' duty, and druids on big heals.

I wouldn't recommend flash heals unless the tank dips low and you're scrambling to top him off again or you get caught out by an aggro change without a heal already casting. A steady stream of mana-efficient long heals is what you want from everyone.

And make sure your DPS understand that they should not expect heals, heals are a bonus, and if they die to flame buffet it's their own fault. We still have the occasional rogue die; I think it's my own fault for tossing around chain heals here and there, they start to expect them.

Errand · 11/24/06, 3:11 AM

If you're having problems with the MT, it's usually Shadowflame or the debuff stacking. Have a healer in to PW:S the tank when the shadowflame warning goes off, and make sure he's paying attention to how many flame buffets he has.

For your OT's, have them (2 should be plenty) run out after the wing buffet to get the flame buffet to clear and get healed up to full. We usually hide healers in the corner behind Firemaw right near the alchemy lab, it's a bit of a shorter run for the OT's but the healers will die if firemaw shadowflames while flying back to the MT. Our OT healers are a bit masochistic so we don't mind it.

Pane · 11/24/06, 3:19 AM

summing up what i've learned so far (i'm a good student yes i am)

- we have too many offtanks, stretching our healers thin
- our offtanks shouldn't be in the room much, as this stretches the healers thin
- our offtank healers should probably be the better healers we have, as they're more likely to anticipate dmg incoming
- with far fewer healers on the offtanks, we'll have more healers on the main tank, meaning they can actually start using a rotation.
- we should reposition our offtank

keep it coming please (unless that's all covered :P). It would do miracles for my guilds progress if we could set this beast on reliable farm :)

Edit: Levk; thanks for that pic

Azaziel · 11/24/06, 3:27 AM

If you having healing problems on this fight
-Have a set priest for renew, a set druid for rejuv to make sure its always up
-Have a set priest who always PW:S right before shadowflame
-Skip CoR, it can give some wacky hits in this fight if you dont have overequipped tanks
- Make sure your tank has firepots, use when he stacks high on the debuff
- Start big heals when shadowflame warning comes

mad-doc · 11/24/06, 3:39 AM

1 mt 3ot
an other war ready to take the ot position.
ot only go into debuffrange if wingbuffed is on its way.
http://www.anikki.com/share/wow/bwl_firemaw.jpg
one or two healers on the inner side ready to heal the offtanks that fly into the room (we taunt at the back of firemaw - melee dps postion).

but he is a bitch and we still sometimes have hard time with him.

Sanderu · 11/24/06, 3:42 AM

I think most is already explained above, one thing I would like to repeat is that we generally also tend to shield the MT on a shadowflame warning while others start casting the big heals. In this way the MT get a little less of a damage spike to prevent a quick hit right after the shadowflame from killing him.

While most is said already I do like to explain how we set up for this:

- We have 2 Off-tanks on Firemaw and generally 1 good priest and 1 good druid for healing on them. 1 off-tanks stays on the off-tank spot until he has 10 debuffs, then he switches with the second off-tank hiding in the "hide" spot. Make sure your healers get aware of this change or else they will attempt to heal the wrong tank.

- We use 2 healing groups composed of a mix of healers each and trying to keep the healing power of this group equal (i.e 2 strong healers in each group,and 3 lesser (gear or skill wise) in each. These groups work in a rotation, one group heals, one group regens mana.

- We let our MT pop shield wall when Firemaw hits 30%, this may get useless after a while but it's sort of tradition here :) It gives the healers some air to breethe so they can focus on the last part of the fight. As soon as Firemaw hits around 20% (depending on how fast our DPS goes) we let both healing groups heal the MT until Firemaw dies. Make sure your healers know when to abort heals to save mana for this. If it doesn't works just keep on working with the 2 groups.

I hope this helps and good luck

Lavode · 11/24/06, 3:48 AM

On MT, one ot, rest of your warriors on "plate rogue" duty. (wearing full fr gear. FR gear is dps gear on firemaw anyway, as it allows more time on the boss) Get vendetta, or natures enemy, or any decent castbar timer. All ot healers have to do is queue up big heals on buffet warnings and keep instants ready. Having more than one ot is false security, it makes things much, much harder without actually providing any real buffer, as what kills tanks on the maw is spikedamage happening when the OT isn't topped off More OTs= much higher chance of the OT not being topped off.... If the OT should die anyway, have an assigned order whereby your dps warriors slap on a shield and move in to taunt the next buffet. (they are in FR gear, so its not a problem). And use a flask of titans on both the MT and the OT. There is a reason that labtable just inside can be reached and used before pulling firemaw. With the proper tactic and timer mods, this is a very, very, easy fight to heal.