hey guys, i come to your forums looking for help. my guild recently downed loatheb and i managed to record it. after viewing it over i came across some very intresting information. i know you guys will be able to assess this video and information that im providing better then anyone else and hopefuly be able to tell me if this is a fluke or maybe im onto something. thankx again

this is a repost from the warrior / rogue forums on wow that i made
_________________________________

When we first started doing Loatheb someone in the guild braught up the crit overriding misses and how a crit cant miss. we had multiple debates such as hitting Cold Blood and the attack missing thus using that to prove that crits can miss. anyways we threw numbers around and just came at a standstill because there was no way to prove it. Being open minded i decided to put on all my AP gear on for Loatheb and thus gimping my hit. in the end i looked over my recap stats and was shocked to see how incredably low my miss rate was especialy given all the +hit i was missing.

this is the video so you can look for yourself.

FileFront: http://files.filefront.com//;6213861;;/
Google Video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...13225804&hl=en

belive me, this is still pretty mind boggeling to me and perhaps im just missing something and would love for someone to prove me wrong.

_________________________________________________
TF procs. (just for data reguarding TF has nothing to do with the miss rate)

14 TF crits for 450 = 6300 damage
13 TF none crits of 300 = 3900 damage
6 TF resists = 0 damage

total procs = 33
total damage 10200 (was off by 200 when i stated it earlier)
_________________________________________________
Gear in the video

+12 to hit + edgemasters + human.
MH = axe
OH = sword

MH hit = 12.28
OH hit = 12.48
_________________________________________________
Misses throughout the video

4 Misses without spore
3 Misses after spore
3 Misses after spore
1 Misses without spore
7 Misses with spore (accidently ate caster spore while bandaging)
*4 out of the 7 occured once Recklessness was used (odd)
2 Misses without spore

Total misses with spore = 13
Total misses without spore = 7
Total misses = 20

This thread is what you're looking for. Special Attacks are now believed to be on a Two-Roll system (first rolls hit or miss/dodge/parry/block, then crit or no crit basically), while regular melee swings are on a one roll system (in which a crit doesn't miss).

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=9330

Just to go with what Drak said, you can easily test this out yourself, go duel someone, take off all your +hit gear, walk up behind them, DW whatever you want, turn on Reck + autoattack and watch every single attack land and crit.

Also one single fight is hardly anything you can discuss. I can show you a screenshot where my backstab crit rate is around 16% lower than expected on Patchwerk.
Sometimes you're lucky, sometimes you aren't.

The problem with this is that they don't, you will miss like crazy with recklessness on.

I spent like an hour and a half testing this a month ago and they never missed. Maybe you should check again?

I've always been wary of the common knowledge about hit tables. The amount of controlled testing behind a lot of it is pretty scant, so it's never really been much more than an informed conjecture (last I heard, we still didn't know whether a Warrior with 300 def could get critted with Shield Block up).

While it's a derail, you wont get crit/crushing with shieldblock up if you got 25% block (and probably + whatever's needed for lvl63 mobs).

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewt...hp?id=8432&p=4

I'm sure you are referring to this thread which if you actually finished reading it, a warrior with 342 defense could not get a 63 mob to crit/crush him with shield block up. It is simple to be crit/crushed with shield block up if you turn your back to the mob however.

Actually, I'd never seen that second-last post, thanks. It seems to clarify something I'd conjectured for a long time, which is that Block doesn't behave in any unusual way (and the notion that Block itself had to be over 100% wasn't based on anything).

So, as far as we know, "one roll" still accounts for all known Mob vs. Player behavior. Really surprising that this wouldn't be the case for Player vs Mob.

look back at when i used reck on loath, in the 15 sec that it was up i missed 4 attacks. now granted that could just have been a terible stroke of luck but this is my theory on it.

if we go with the theory that crit adds to hit then we would have the following
50 from spore
12.xx from hit
35 or so from crit gear/pots on
_______________________
= 97 hit.

once i use recklessness that shoots me over 100% to crit and perhaps there is a treshhold at 100% that resets or does some other funky things once you break 100%. im not too fomilar with the cold blood mechanics but if its anything like recklessness but for specials that could explaine why it can miss since it shoots the rogue over 100%. just a thought.

umm.. I'm pretty sure Razuvious crit me with an unbalancing strike one time. It hurt.

edit: post below - well he usually hits me for like 40k (plate), that one went over 100k. I have no screenies tho, so I'll just shut up.

He didn't. He just UBSes really, really hard.

cba to find out how I stretch the combat log, so two pictures:




Note how they overlap abit, so you can see it's legit, clearly shows a miss while having reck.

Which ofc isn't news, but you asked for it ^^

Well yes, have a duel with a warrior with recklessness and a rogue with evasion, and the warrior will hardly land any attack at all.

Except we're not talking about dodged attacks, we're talking about missed ones. There's a difference.

tried it today. these are the results with zero to hit. which sort of support my theory that once you go over 100 crit you begin missing.

So crit overrides hit, but not miss.

Am I missing anything? :s

(I really feel I am)

No, you aren't missing anything (at least for white attacks).

FAME, I have no idea what you're trying to say: are you implying that high crit rates somehow change your miss rate? Because my Loatheb data implies exactly the opposite: I miss roughly the expected number of swings, whether spore buff is up or not.

i think crit overrides misses up until you get 100% to crit, past 100% it gets odd and you begin missing again

For FAME's benefit:
It is known that for white hits, the table goes like:
Dodge/Parry/Block (unremovable, except for positioning on Parry/Block). Miss -> Hit. Hit -> Crit.

As in, every +hit you get, will remove a Miss chance on the table. Every +crit you get, will remove a Hit chance on the table (and increase it's relevant stat, as well)

So increase +crit by more than 100%?

That removes all Hit from the table (overrides). Seeing a player can't Dodge/Parry/Block from behind, all you can do is Miss. Seeing Crit doesn't effect your Miss rate, all you will do is Crit and Miss.

This is common knowledge for white attacks.

The table, and effects on Yellow attacks, are still not confirmed. (There is discussion currently going on, over at this thread.

And just quietly, to answer your friends questions about Cold Blood missing. Remember, what I said earlier, +crit knocks Hit off the table. It does nothing to Miss/Dodge/Parry.
http://thottbot.com/?sp=14177 is the Cold Blood entry. Notice it does nothing to your Hit chance, so that means, you can still Miss/Dodge/Parry with it. IFF they changed Cold Blood to also increase your Hit chance by 100% (like they did with Felstriker), then they would remove the chance for it to be a Miss, but Dodge/Parry will still always be there.

edit: Wait, you're offhanding TF?... dude... :/

edit2: How many white swings did you take in that whole fight?
I ask because if you have any where near ~240 swings (white only), then the numbers match up perfectly. ~11% of 240 is ~20 misses.

The data I've collected does not match your assessment.