A rather unique situation came up not long ago and made me think about my guild's DKP system... And How Fair it is.

Also, we will most likely not keep our current DKP system for TBC and this is why i speak here, to find better ways and possible improvement or method we could discuss.

My first concern, Adding new member.

We use a Zero-Sum DKP. We all can agree (i assume) that in a Zero-sum the values people have are irrelevent, but the order in wich they class people is what matters. But what happen to us is that we've been quite lucky with shaman drops and most of our shamans atm are very near 0 DKP or in the negative. However when a new member is added, he starts at 0 DKP, wich was the case last night. A new shaman came in, and had 0 DKP (wich was more than most of our old time members). So this new guy has potentially priority over loot for stuff off Nef over half the guild who worked to get that on Farm, on his first raid.

The problem here i think is that the irrelevent number values of the DKP become relevent, unless i fail to see other points.

It kinda raised a flag at the "Is it fair?" question. How do you guys add new member in your DKP? How do you integrate them in your system without making it unfair to either the new member or the old ones.

My second concern, the Hybrid Dilemna.

Our DKP "Sort itself out". I mean, every piece of loot as a "price", we dont use an upgrade system like EJ, and we dont have DKP caps either. Hybrids like DPS warrior, Shadowpriest, Feral druids, Elem or Enhence shamans, well the ones we have are building up 2 sets of gear. (warrior tank and dps, druid healing and feral etc.)

Since we pay full price for all pieces, these classes have, in average, a LOT less DKP (the numeric value) than the pure classes. That being said, it can be viewed as "OK" because they indeed get more gear. But we do use our feral druids, for example, in our raids sometimes, and we all know a feral druid in healing gear doesnt get the feral job done.

To fully utilize our hybrids like we do, we need to gear them up. But when we take a look at loot distribution, Warriors, Priests, Druids and shamans, with their DKP being significantly lower in average than other classes, have a lot of trouble getting Rings, Capes, Trinkets... For example, we have been clearing BWL for months and i still have my DM / ubrs trinkets.

Is that being fair? Can we do something about it?

EJ give off spec loots to lower dkp prices if im not mistaken. Do you guys have loot restrictions? i.e: a Enhence shaman would pay less for a Drake Fang talisman than a rogue, but does the rogue have priority over the shaman for it? or does DKP decides who gets it even if they would pay it a different price?

How do you guys deal with your hybrids now, and how will you deal with them in TBC? I think in TBC hybrid classes will have more space / room to be used as hybrids in raids than they do now. Since Hybrids needs potentially more gear sets they fall in the DKP hole quite quickly...

One thing's for sure, we will start fresh with all our members at 0 DKP when we start raiding in TBC. Though it's still unclear what we will have in our system. It will be a Zero-sum, we're thinking of getting something like EJ's upgrade system. But its not yet decided, and thats why i posting these concerns of mine.

Thanks for the feedback.

This might be better posted as a reply to the EJ Loot System thread:
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=5387

I'm not just asking EJ, there is other guilds that post here and use different system my questions / concerns are directed to them as well.

The hybrid problem isn't really a problem imo.
If you are a raiding guild, pure dps classes should get pure dps trinkets / cloaks / weapons first because they benefit more to the raid.
So basically there's no problem with hybrid classes having less dkp than pure classes since only the dkp of the hybrid class matters. An enhancement shaman or feral druid shouldn't be competing with a rogue over drake fang imo, because the rogue and raid will benefit so much more from a rogue having drake fang.
The only problem I see is dps warriors having to take tank gear, but that's why we use different poules for armor and trinket/weapon/cloaks etc.

Mains > Applicants solves your first problem and is something that every guild ought to be doing. Every time I see a rejected app walk off with sweet gear I want to cry.

The hybrid issue is a tougher one to tackle because it affects not only your healers but your warriors as well. Unless you are jamming your warriors into a Prot corner (which is dumb) they are going to need at least 1.5 sets of gear to be effective in a variety of situations, and most warriors are nutters enough to have at least 2 full sets on them at any given time plus resist gear. I just got done submitting a DKP proposal that used a pretty normal upgrading system with the caveat that an upgrade or downgrade also pays 10% of the cost of the new item's full price. This way (hopefully) people or classes that focus on a raid role can still come out ahead of those that diversify without crippling hybrids' DKP.

Well, going by how much is dropping in Karazhan at the moment, i think most hybrids will find it fairly easy to have 2 sets of gear. Of course it depends more on what the guild wants them to do. For example i'm planning on taking 1 Shadow priest, retribution paladin and enhancement shaman and at least 1 feral druid (if players wish to spec as such) to optimise dps output, and the way Tier 5 at least is looking to shape up gearing them for those roles will be a lot easier than it was before which is why hybrids are looking more attractive to raid leaders (in addition to slightly more refined rolls).

For new members, we have also run into this problem.
Solved it now by requiring 100 earned DKP for a new member to bid on any loot, which currently translates into 2 weeks of raiding.
If nobody else wants an item, he still can buy it though.
Also these 100 DKP is only for the actual earned value, and not current standing.

Applicants shouldn't be allowed to bid until they are membered. Some guilds will not ginvite applicants; some will have a guild rank ("Warlock" for us). Said applicants are on a probationary period, and they will only pick up gear if no members need it, without regard to DKP.

As for new members -- after probation -- why wouldn't they get to bid over older members / vets? Said members are in the negative because they took more gear than they've raided for. That's how the zero-sum works. One loots what one has earned. If one believes one deserves more for learning / "putting on farm" the instance, then said guild should consider the (DKP) incentives for learning nights, guild firsts, server firsts, "ownage" nights (one-shot otherwise difficult bosses), (long) late nights, etc.

However, in the same regard, our raid uses some discretion even with the "fairness" of zero-sum. For instance, a new member isn't going to be able to sit on his points to loot KT stuff, if said member is passing other upgrades (almost on rot). Nonetheless, I don't see how a new member -- with more DKP -- is unfairly looting over long-time members / vets.

As for hybrids, reduced price (1/2 for us) seems logical, for the reasons already stated. Hybrids need gear for alternative-raid and out-of-raid roles, too. Main DPS get priority, without regard to DKP, unless it's a minor upgrade or sub-par to a Class: piece.

There's also the nice bonus that apps will tend to get a bunch of gear that everyone else is "past" up front; for instance, any warr/rogue coming into EF at this point will get their T3 shoulders very quickly. That tends to knock them down to the point where they're not serious competition for your longterm raiders anyway.

EF's current system charges a flat 5 DKP for any offspec gear (for pricing comparison, T3 pieces range from 100-185 DKP, Naxx weapons tend to be 130-200 DKP; previous content tiers have lower pricing), with priority always going to a full payee over a 5 bid (no upgrade pricing in place at this time). There are some flaws with this system as well, but it isn't a bad one.

We require the raider to have at least half the cost of the item in positive value before they are allowed to roll. If its going to rot they obviously get it and just start out that much more in the hole.

What that does is makes them raid at least a while before they will be looting the items. For example we charge like 400 for a chest from 4h. If you have earned at least 200 rpp with us you can roll, reguardless of your member/app/dogcatcher status.

What happenned in that particualr situations is:

Old member A and B were around -150 DKP and at 6/8 T2 both Needing Chest / shoulders

New guy C comes on his first raid with us and happens to be a BWL one. He starts at 0 DKP and walks away with the T2 shoulders and was slightlty above both Old member A and B and could have walked away with the chest too if it had dropped.

Wich is what raised a flag for me.

Slighly offotopic, but has anybody thought about incorporating raid droppable gems into zero sum with upgrades ?

The only way to be negative, with zero-sum, is to have looted more drops than "earned." Said members can think of it as they are lucky enough there was "extra" loot in the system to allow them to go negative. In the end, everyone should have looted proportionally to time invested.

Obviously, as I explained, there will be exceptions. For us, an new member isn't going to be able to take his/her first loot as a KT weapon (or something of that nature). Depending on class, shoulders / chest are typically big deals, so the above restriction may apply. However, it's important to understand how your old (-DKP) members got themselves in that position, first -- they looted more than they saw loot for others. Thankfully token systems make the set-piece randomness a lot cleaner (so having to wait for shoulders / chest is a lot less painful).

And "new guy C" shouldn't be looting over members on his first raid. As explained, there should be a trial / probationary period. However, that's still a separate story than new guy (member after 3wk probation) with 75 DKP is out-bidding -75 old members

After 2 raid nights on wich the new showed up, he has 100% of attendance since he got in guild. It doesnt quite solve it...

If we say, he needs like 4 raids before he can get loot. The problem is only delayed if he is earning DKP while he cant loot since his position doesnt change.

That's perfectly fine by me. My question is more: How do you handle Probation periods? Do Trials Earn DKP on probation?

Well, we use a 90 day window with an attendance requirement for profession recipe roll rights (they aren't DKP determined - anyone who can learn it then and there, and has a 70%+ 90-day attendance, can roll on it). Something similar can be used.

That said: don't you have an applicant period? During that time, our apps can loot, but only if a main doesn't want it, irrespective of DKP. By the time they're out of the applicant phase, generally they've looted enough that they're behind the longer-term members anyway; and if they haven't, well, damn, they're members too, why get bent if they get one item before someone else?

(edit: Applicants in our system earn/spend exactly the same as any member, with the sole exception of they are lower priority than members are.)

You have to give everyone, even your new recruits, loot at some point. The issue here is really how long of a probationary period you're comfortable with. In the example you gave, you didn't use a probationary period, and your new member walked off with T2 shoulders after 2 raids. 2/2 raids is technically 100%, but if you're going to use attendance as a marker you need to use a control period (say 50% attendance over the last 30 days).

The other purpose of a probationary loot period (whether it's determined by time with the guild, DKP minimum, or raid attendance) is that your new members *should* be taking defaulted loot during that period which adjusts their point totals to normal levels and puts them at a level relative to your other raiders. If there isn't enough loot to go around during that period, then your other raiders should be up there as well. If your new recruit is still above them in the black at the end of that period, they're entitled to whatever they put the time in for.

Like other people said, the point is to put in some kind of restriction where you can say "ok, they earned that," whether it's requiring a minimum level of positive points, or a certain attendance level over a recent time period.

Yeah. After all, it's not like there is a megathread that addresses different loot systems and most likely every conceivable concern regarding their implementation. Oh wait.

If it's such a good thread, why isn't it in the "Threads of Significance" sticky? :p

Because it's a dumb topic and the "search" function still works.

-edit-
Let me amend that to say there's nothing wrong with comparing a system with others, and then taking what you learn and making it all your own, but threads on the subject generally degrade into a circus of shit-flinging monkeys who all think their way is the best way and all others are just too stupid to see it.

well, like in naxx now, we have a tokenpoule ( armor items ) and a weaponpoule ( trinkets, weapons, ... ).
warriors will take dreadnaught pieces, and can still take random dps armor because only warriors can use plate on horde.
trinkets, weapons, cloaks, rings are another poule where they have to compete vs. mainly rogues and hunters. Warriors might have a problem if they need a new shield or new tanking ring, but you might as well give them a discount for those items because they actually _need_ it.

We also went with a split set/non-set piece system at the start of Naxxramas. Although personally I hate it. As a prot warrior I have never taken DPS loot outside of mc/zg and never over our main dps warriors, but they all take DPS loot as well as T3 since the system is split apart.

I have nearly every non-set tanking item in Naxx until Sapphiron because there's nothing else for me to take. Still leading warrior non-set points, but losing T3 to fury warriors.

Unrelated to this, our melee T3 drops are low in general:

58 Druid/Hunter/Paladin
54 Priest/Mage/Warlock
43 Warrior/Rogue