sl4ppy

A little background first...

On the Bronzebeard server there is a "PuG" led by a mage named Telemakos and conveniently named TelePug that is clearing the Spider-wing and Noth with impressive success. Telepug (iirc) started off as an avenue for people in guilds who have stopped doing MC, etc. a chance to fill in missing items they wanted from those instances, or to outfit their alts.

It has since seen wild success and popularity, especially with its success in AQ (up to C'thun so far) and its recent forays into Naxxramas. This is in large part due to its make-up which has become predominantly (50%+) alts from the most progressed guilds on the server. Telepug maintains its own website, forums and DKP system...

Now onto the meat:

An interesting discussion erupted today on the Bronzebeard forums concerning the legitimacy of such a progressed "pug", wether it's essentially just another "guild" and calling it a "PuG" is merely a loophole around most guilds "Single guild membership" rules... The thread starts off as a benign congratulatory thread about noth, but gets interesting at post #22. You can find the original post here.

I'm curious to what EJ readers feel about the situation? Does this PuG masquerade a veiled guild? Does it undermine a persons 'original' guild to run alts (or mains) with an equally progressed pug or competing guild? Should players have a commitment to their guild, or should simply "doing what is most fun" reign supreme?


Anyway, I thought it was an interesting discussion, and I'm eager to hear some thoughts outside the Bronzebeard universe....

edit: btw, Bronzebeard is incorrectly labeled an EU server in the profiles section. We're a Pacific US server...

 

Ghostz

I think your guild name is fitting. :)

Also, we had something similar on Magtheridon, but it didn't progress anywhere near as far as Naxx. It was made up of alts and people taken from IF. Most loot was freeroll, capped at 1 piece per run and no loot on your first raid with the bunch. I had no problem with people from my guild going on the weekly MC raid which then turned into a BWL raid. Though I don't have any problems with double memberships as long as it doesnt interfere with their attitude or contribution.

For reference, IIRC, when we transferred over (probably aroudn 6 months ago) they were working on Nef, not too sure what they've done since then.

 

• Zyla

I think its great, and I participate on my warrior on a bwl clearing pug on my server which is somewhat akin to this - theres pug regulars that get priority inviting and such, and we just go in, screw around and clear the instance. Theres no loot drama, and its just a welcome relief from the stresses of serious business naxx. My guild actively encourages people to run pugs and to organize them - it helps tremendously to build additional value in members of the guild in ways that you couldnt before because of time constraints. Instead of having to trudge through mandatory ZG/MC/BWL, you can just leave it up to pugging for people to get the last few pieces they need/want. I think its great because its less stress and overhead from a guild/raid leading perspective, and allows us to focus solely on the progression content full blast and not have to worry about the other little things.

We don't use words like that...St. Louise is listening!

 

sl4ppy

I guess I'm more curious about when the PuG groups are on equal footing progression wise as the top 1% of guilds on the server. What if that PuG you looked to alleviate some of the every-day stresses was out-progressing your guild?

Would there be jealousy? Concern about focus and commitment? etc. Would you as a player running both guild raids and more progressed PuGs become less interested in the lesser progressed guild runs over time??

I guess that's what I'm trying to get at....

 

Drjest

The more pointed question, Zyla, is would you take your warrior to a naxx pug? Would that interfere with your current naxx progression? This assumes you would be spending the same amount of $$ on consumables, etc. etc. for both toons.

 

Gyshall

Do they all wear the same guild tag? Telepug?

 

sl4ppy

No, they carry their original guilds tag.

 

Ghostz

Would there be jealousy? Ofcourse. Thats how the whole argument started (I'm assuming, can't access wow forums), people start thinking about people leaving their guild, not paying as much attention to their guild, missing raids. Its also never good for morale to know that a PuG is progressing faster than your guild.

How many days per week does this pug raid? I'm assuming its at least 2-3 since they're working on both C'Thun and Naxx simultaneously. Don't the top guilds raid more often than 4-5 days?

I can fully understand leaders and officers of other guilds that are lesser or similarly progressed as the pug to be worried and tell their members to pick one, because sooner or later its gonna turn into a "I get better loot raiding with them, why should I raid with you" deal and its gonna start tearing guilds apart.

 

Taikero

There's a raiding alliance on Cenarion Circle called the CCRA that is currently the most progressed Alliance group in Naxxramas (Mainly because all the big guilds broke up.).

Personally, I wish guilds could and would function like a lot of "PuGs" do, at least semi-organized PuGs. Usually when a group wipes, there's little blame and it's simply, "What did we do wrong, let's try again." As well, loot drama is very non-existent usually since people are usually polite in such situations.

I think it's fine to have such organizations, but it is really the same thing, just without the /guild channel.

 

• Kalroth

A PuG is a pickup group. Once you've got a regular team of people, it's no longer a true PuG.

In this case it's a mix of well equipped characters (mains) with Naxxramas experience and mediocre equipped characters (alts) but also with Naxxramas experience. But more importantly they got raid experience and they seem to know each other and how to react in raids.

This group of players is more like an alliance of players from several guilds and thus isn't a PuG anymore. In my opinion. :)

As for the "single guild membership rule"; as long as a guild member knows his/her priorities, eg. shows up for guild raids and are prepared, then I couldn't care less what they do in their free time. If they want to raid Naxxramas, then more power to them. Skilled and raid hungry players are rare, you have to treasure those that you got. :)

 

• Arawethion

Any old LB Alliance vets know all about the assorted messes of giant mixed-guild raid conglomerations. We had an enormous one that stifled the appearance of new raid guilds for like six months.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
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2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Mosh

If there were members of my guild doing this, I'd consider it OK as long as it didn't interfere with stuff we do in our guild. We have people going on various lower-end PUGs when we're not raiding, but when we are, I expect everyone to be fully ready (including not being locked to the instance we're going to).

 

Ngita

Well we booted someone in similar circumstances. We have no problem with someone attending pugs it must have no affect on your attendance in our raids. In the case of the person we booted a couple of the factors where We were doing a mc run for bindings and t2 pants. Certainly not compulsory or progression but if your online your expected to attend and we where around 35 in raid. They logged on, Got invited and arrived in mc and asked for a summon, We had just pulled a boss, so Hold on was said. 2-3 mins later after still not being summoned they log off, Except then a known alt logs in and suprise,suprise 5 later is in mc with a pug while we are also in mc . A warrning was given. A few weeks later we knew the pug was breaking bwl late at night and the next day we had a progression aq40. She did a pretty bad job and was obviously tired. Next week same thing and 5 mins after logging in begged of our twin emps attempts with "I am tired and have a headache". That was enough that she was told either cut back on your pugging or you will be asked to leave and in the end she was booted.

 

◊ rhyd

If it doesn't interfere with the player's performance and attendance for their main, then more power to them.

We have a few people in my (alliance) guild that love raiding and have a horde alts that they raid with on our offdays. I, myself, have a priest alt that looks like a main: hit rank 13, exalted with several factions like CC, has half t2 as well as assorted dps toys. We also have members who guild their alts with MC-ish guilds, and help guide them through the encounters plus Ony, Hakkar etc.

For our case specifically, there's a strong correlation between our best players and active alts, be it in our guild or some others.

 

Ragnor

It starts to get funny when people are playing their alt in the "pug" instead of their main in the guild run. I'm assuming the pug run occurs at a time that doesn't coincide with the big guilds raid times or their would be hella drama soon enough.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

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◊ Kaubel

STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP.

Someone please PLEASE tell me at what point in time everyone started thinking that "of course" was one word. It's almost as freaking bad now as the your/you're misspelling.

 

Proeliata

There are alot of people who think that, its apart of posting on the Internet to see such mistake's.

(That hurt to write. >_>)

To the OP, I think this should be decided on a case-by-case basis. Guilds are like people, different guilds require different levels of "commitment." Some guilds don't care if people raid with others, some guilds are upset if you have a non-raiding alt in another guild.

Whatever drama is inherent in the situation will work itself out--if it manages to work out peacefully, then so much the better for the members of the group and for the server--it sounds pretty awesome to have a fairly open raiding organization like that, if they are indeed as open as the term "pug" implies.

If they're not that open, then I'd be hard pressed to see the difference between them and a guild, and maybe that's how it will work itself out. That seems to be the fate of many alliances anyway.

Generation 29:
The first time you see this, copy it into your signature on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
^^ don't ask me why I fell for this.

 

Drakonious

If done correctly this system is a very good system IMO. I'm sure the EJ guys, and practically anyone on Mal'Ganis can atest to how well similar systems work. Bee A Honey has a guild alliance with Giant Censored Robots and Tusk and Talon for MC/ZG/AQ20, it's a PUG in some definition of the word, but it's within those three guilds, it's open for alts and mains alike. This system is awesome for players who've had bad luck with loot in MC, or want their AQ books, ZG rep, etc. etc. even though their guild as a whole is tired of running those instances. Since it's a Tri-guild sanctioned alliance there's no risk to the player of reprisal for being in these "PUGs."

The TelePug in question operates outside and indepently of the main's guilds, which is why it's obviously catching flak. But imo, if it's only alts, then the guilds really have no room to complain because they accepted the person's Main into the guild, expect the main to raid, depend on the main, not their alt.

 

◊ Oggie

For those skimming the thread and not seeing any personal relivance, I'd like to ponit out one thing- Karahazan.

Obviously your high attendence raid times will be 25 mans (for most guilds posting on this board, anyway), but what to do with a raid-locked 10 man? Currently on beta it's going down fairly quickly, but I'd say it's a reasonably safe bet that they are going to increase the difficulty a fair amount, and so you have a reasonably high skill level instance with a much smaller basis, that will in all probability be run durring off-raid hours.

So while most of us don't have this sort of situation going on (perhaps), I think that there's some stuff we can learn from these experinces to figure out how to handle this sort of thing.

 

Lumi

Honestly, 10 mans are small enough to be mostly guildmates/friends, especially with challenging and fun content. It might be 'PuG" in the sense of a few guilds being representative, but its really a far cry from spamming LFG UBRS.

 

Rz

It probably happened around the same time that "ridiculous" started being spelled with an "e", which is the one that absolutely drives me up the god damn wall.

 

Vhex

This isn't really all that different from multi-guild alliances that were fairly common in EQ. With the added bonus that you don't have to worry about dicking over "real" guilds. We often had peoples alts joining/helping these alliances as well just because sometimes it's fun to go back and take some newbs through a zone. During PoP I led an open raiding organization with over 600 members. It was amazing the tells I got after we'd kill like Saryrn or Mith Marr. People who never had a chance in hell to even -see- these encounters were just amazed at the whole experience.

So I guess it depends on how you define your own guild. Some guilds really are put together for the sole focus of loot, believe me I was in one. It stayed together because we kept winning but I don't think anybody ever talked in Guildchat. A guild like that might have a problem with it because you're 'circumventing' the loot system in place to get more.

But my main focus for a guild now is a place where I can relax and have fun while still kicking ass and if people want to go join pug raids on their free time, I'm all for it. Hell, I've even gone on a few pug raids myself and we've done a few pug ZG's as well.

It's good times.

 

• Zyla

If there was one, absolutely. But I would always keep in mind that it is supplemental to my commitments as co-guild leader, occasional raid leader and officer of my guild. Honestly, the pugs I participate in are a welcome change from the responsibility of the position I've chosen to play for my guild. After doing my best to motivate and teach 50-60 others, its nice to be the somewhat anonymous token fury warrior bashing away at things mindlessly in a raid. In many ways, it has enhanced my enjoyment of the game, as it lets me play from a completely different situation, it enhances my understanding of not only my own role in my guild but also lets me peer under the hood of how other guilds work and operate and treat their members.

There are many ways that this arrangement can go poorly, however, and many of them have already been outlined. Some members are so on the bubble that they might fight this new pug to be more enjoyable to play in then their main and that hurts guilds. I do feel that if that is the catalyst for someone leaving, they might not have been right for the guild to begin with, or their priorities lie elsewhere. It also depends on the atmosphere of the pug group. The more it resembles a real guild, the stronger these issues may present themselves.

Of course theres also side benefits, like being able to scout for new talent, and also who to watch out for. A few pugs that meandered their way through the pugs were denied on their apps because I had been there to see how they behave and interact without them even knowing ^.^. I would even go so far as to say if you're a newer player that isn't currently in a progression guild to make their best efforts to attend these multiple guild sponsored pugs in an effort to get noticed.

Again, it all hinges on the goals and motivation of both the pug and the guild. If the guild is there to progress and get lots of loot, then if the pug is passing them, then it's failing at its mission pretty horribly and its understandable that people will leave. Can't say I blame them. The only thing worse then a guild built on greed and envy, is a guild built on greed and envy that sucks. The guilds that have a stronger foundation and have the right understanding of what one should be really wouldn't be threatened by the pugs, because the appeal comes from the guild, not from the loot or the progression.

We don't use words like that...St. Louise is listening!

 

krucifix85

Haha, yep, we did and still do (even though we don't raid as a guild any more, hehe) PuG MC's, and when we were raiding, we were able to poach one or two very good healers, who were at the time in non-raiding guilds...

http://ctprofiles.net/13134

 

DeusEx

The "TelePUG" concept is a great for minimzing burnout syndroms, that almost everyone fally prey to sooner or later. Most people get bored on their mains, and who is to blame them for securing their fun by taking an alt to such a group. I would guess a happy player that is spending part of their time in alternate group is worth more to their "main guild", then is a burnt out player who will eventually quit the guild or even the game as whole. Who didn't wish to change class from time to time or simply group up with other good players on your server, you can't usally raid with because they are in another guild?

If someone enjoys the PUG runs so much more than raiding with his original guild, then, let's face it, it's a problem of the original guild in the first place. This guild has to ask itself some serious questions, how they treat their members. From my experience many mid-tier raiding guilds fail eventually because guild leadership develops some "delusions of power" so to speak. Many guilds chartas and policies are rife with articifical rules and restrictions forced upon their members that have no real rationale, but to sooth the illusion of power for the respective guild leadership: forced specs, awkward alt and reroll policies, loot councils, attendance requirements even for out-progressed content and the worst of all, fuzzy statements of "allegiance" and "loyality". As long as you participate in progression content with your guild, it shouldn't really be anyones business what you do during the rest of your gaming time. If guild leadership tries to coerce it's members to refrain from such an activity, they are simply abusing their members for the sake of their illusional power gain.

Perhaps it is not only "illusion of power" but the "WoW is serious business" fallacy. If people are having fun, that can't be good for progression right? Because if they would be really "committed" they wouldn't have fun, but would suffer through it for the "good of the guild".

I'm not an addict ... maybe that's a lie.