STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP.

Someone please PLEASE tell me at what point in time everyone started thinking that "of course" was one word. It's almost as freaking bad now as the your/you're misspelling.

If done correctly this system is a very good system IMO. I'm sure the EJ guys, and practically anyone on Mal'Ganis can atest to how well similar systems work. Bee A Honey has a guild alliance with Giant Censored Robots and Tusk and Talon for MC/ZG/AQ20, it's a PUG in some definition of the word, but it's within those three guilds, it's open for alts and mains alike. This system is awesome for players who've had bad luck with loot in MC, or want their AQ books, ZG rep, etc. etc. even though their guild as a whole is tired of running those instances. Since it's a Tri-guild sanctioned alliance there's no risk to the player of reprisal for being in these "PUGs."

The TelePug in question operates outside and indepently of the main's guilds, which is why it's obviously catching flak. But imo, if it's only alts, then the guilds really have no room to complain because they accepted the person's Main into the guild, expect the main to raid, depend on the main, not their alt.

For those skimming the thread and not seeing any personal relivance, I'd like to ponit out one thing- Karahazan.

Obviously your high attendence raid times will be 25 mans (for most guilds posting on this board, anyway), but what to do with a raid-locked 10 man? Currently on beta it's going down fairly quickly, but I'd say it's a reasonably safe bet that they are going to increase the difficulty a fair amount, and so you have a reasonably high skill level instance with a much smaller basis, that will in all probability be run durring off-raid hours.

So while most of us don't have this sort of situation going on (perhaps), I think that there's some stuff we can learn from these experinces to figure out how to handle this sort of thing.

Honestly, 10 mans are small enough to be mostly guildmates/friends, especially with challenging and fun content. It might be 'PuG" in the sense of a few guilds being representative, but its really a far cry from spamming LFG UBRS.

This isn't really all that different from multi-guild alliances that were fairly common in EQ. With the added bonus that you don't have to worry about dicking over "real" guilds. We often had peoples alts joining/helping these alliances as well just because sometimes it's fun to go back and take some newbs through a zone. During PoP I led an open raiding organization with over 600 members. It was amazing the tells I got after we'd kill like Saryrn or Mith Marr. People who never had a chance in hell to even -see- these encounters were just amazed at the whole experience.

So I guess it depends on how you define your own guild. Some guilds really are put together for the sole focus of loot, believe me I was in one. It stayed together because we kept winning but I don't think anybody ever talked in Guildchat. A guild like that might have a problem with it because you're 'circumventing' the loot system in place to get more.

But my main focus for a guild now is a place where I can relax and have fun while still kicking ass and if people want to go join pug raids on their free time, I'm all for it. Hell, I've even gone on a few pug raids myself and we've done a few pug ZG's as well.

It's good times.

If there was one, absolutely. But I would always keep in mind that it is supplemental to my commitments as co-guild leader, occasional raid leader and officer of my guild. Honestly, the pugs I participate in are a welcome change from the responsibility of the position I've chosen to play for my guild. After doing my best to motivate and teach 50-60 others, its nice to be the somewhat anonymous token fury warrior bashing away at things mindlessly in a raid. In many ways, it has enhanced my enjoyment of the game, as it lets me play from a completely different situation, it enhances my understanding of not only my own role in my guild but also lets me peer under the hood of how other guilds work and operate and treat their members.

There are many ways that this arrangement can go poorly, however, and many of them have already been outlined. Some members are so on the bubble that they might fight this new pug to be more enjoyable to play in then their main and that hurts guilds. I do feel that if that is the catalyst for someone leaving, they might not have been right for the guild to begin with, or their priorities lie elsewhere. It also depends on the atmosphere of the pug group. The more it resembles a real guild, the stronger these issues may present themselves.

Of course theres also side benefits, like being able to scout for new talent, and also who to watch out for. A few pugs that meandered their way through the pugs were denied on their apps because I had been there to see how they behave and interact without them even knowing ^.^. I would even go so far as to say if you're a newer player that isn't currently in a progression guild to make their best efforts to attend these multiple guild sponsored pugs in an effort to get noticed.

Again, it all hinges on the goals and motivation of both the pug and the guild. If the guild is there to progress and get lots of loot, then if the pug is passing them, then it's failing at its mission pretty horribly and its understandable that people will leave. Can't say I blame them. The only thing worse then a guild built on greed and envy, is a guild built on greed and envy that sucks. The guilds that have a stronger foundation and have the right understanding of what one should be really wouldn't be threatened by the pugs, because the appeal comes from the guild, not from the loot or the progression.

Haha, yep, we did and still do (even though we don't raid as a guild any more, hehe) PuG MC's, and when we were raiding, we were able to poach one or two very good healers, who were at the time in non-raiding guilds...

If you have a DKP system, I doubt you're a "PuG".

But does it matter if people raid with another guild? If anything their members are getting more experience from raiding then they would be from their own single raids. Also, getting used to running with other people outside your guild is a great avenue to recruit from.

Personally I think its a great idea and I applaud them for being relatively successful.

I view a guild as a social contract - if I pledge to be there for the guild, the guild pledges to be there for me, and thus we are all one big happy raiding family. In a hardcore raid guild, and in a social one, while the presumptions were alternate - presumed attendance (post if you'll be absent!) versus presumed absense (post if you'll be there!), they were the same basis.

If you're in a guild, fulfilling your social contract to them and they to you, what's the problem? This is, in my mind, the definition of a semantic argument. "What is a PUG?" Cut it down a little and we're on, "Depends what 'is' is." The question boils down to if they both raid Wednesday at 8pm, which one are you going to show up to? That is your guild, and the other is an organized PUG. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but take PUG from "the streets" if you will - a pick up game. Doesn't matter if the pick up game is essentially scheduled every Thursday at 5 with the same 5 people, it's still a pick up game.

Moreover, it's up to the guilds in question and why they have those rules. If they believe multi-raiding will induce burnout, then "what is a guild" is completely irrelevent. If they're worried about retention, then in my mind they have bigger issues to which they can't legislate solutions.

Finally, it's a game. Make it unfun and people will stop playing (dealer's choice of: with you/altogether).

That is about on the level as loose/lose. I cringe every time I see the loose/lose mistake in someone's posting.

There was a pick up raid for Horde on Warsong that was known as PuGRaid but I didn't know much about how they operated due to being on the alliance side. From what I remember they progressed pretty well but I think eventually it broke up.

I do like the idea of the public raids but only had a short bit of experience with allied guild raids. Do they usually break up due to loot drama or folks getting enough people to do things on their own?

How rediculous, ofcourse your overreacting if we let lose a few grammer errors.

Ahem.

To be honest, I don't see the appeal of re-entering MC either on my main or my alt. BWL? Well, the guild runs a trip on the off day I can't make, but I'd honestly rather grind for herbs/cash/alt than attend a PuG. Not had the best of histories horde side my server has PuG raids.

PuG Nax?
Good grief. I don't think my WoW bank balance could cope with that aside from a few easy Razu/Anub kills.

I'd like to subscribe to the principle 'as long as it doesn't hurt your main guild responsabilities, do what you like' philosophy, but I just don't think that's doable any more.

There's always something you could do to better you or your guilds NAxx performance. More repair costs, more consumables etc. Gone are the days where raiding wasn't a full time (WoW-time) occupation...