The Naxx progressed "PuG" and Guild allegiance discussion... - Page 3

Felippe · 12/01/06, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by Proeliata

Originally Posted by Lanky

It isn't. People hear the grinding of machine gears and start drama or jump ship. I do enjoy the social contract idea of guildhood, and I am thinking the analolgy can go a long way, since in either hypothetical or actual social contract theory the following characteristics emerge that one can see in guilds:

1. "Sovereign" placed above populace to rule, be it a President, GM, or King.
2. A chief good such as security, regular phat lootz, property, or human rights is protected by the institution. Maybe all at once. (That would be a special guild)
3. A "natural" state which occurs before the contract: Guildless. The game certainly does not ship with your character in a guild.
4. A concept of distributive justice, what WoW gamers would equate to a DKP or points-by system, although conceptions of justice vary (see: officer distribution)

I've actually been writing an essay about the guild as a social contract. >_> Stop stealing my ideas! :)

Hold up now, this is a bunch of people getting together to play a game you're talking about. What exactly are you trying to prove with your essay?

Proeliata · 12/01/06, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by jakez0r

Originally Posted by Proeliata

Originally Posted by Lanky

It isn't. People hear the grinding of machine gears and start drama or jump ship. I do enjoy the social contract idea of guildhood, and I am thinking the analolgy can go a long way, since in either hypothetical or actual social contract theory the following characteristics emerge that one can see in guilds:

1. "Sovereign" placed above populace to rule, be it a President, GM, or King.
2. A chief good such as security, regular phat lootz, property, or human rights is protected by the institution. Maybe all at once. (That would be a special guild)
3. A "natural" state which occurs before the contract: Guildless. The game certainly does not ship with your character in a guild.
4. A concept of distributive justice, what WoW gamers would equate to a DKP or points-by system, although conceptions of justice vary (see: officer distribution)

I've actually been writing an essay about the guild as a social contract. >_> Stop stealing my ideas! :)

Hold up now, this is a bunch of people getting together to play a game you're talking about. What exactly are you trying to prove with your essay?

I stopped feeling that essays have to "prove" something a long time ago, so it's more of an analysis of the state-like qualities of the guild, as well as how the social contract holds with respect to it. Besides, why is a bunch of people getting together to play a game unworthy of a more in-depth analysis than "we're just here to play a game?"

That being said, it's all just for fun and not for a class or mass distribution or anything. It's more a case of getting my conclusions down on paper (as well as working out a few aspects that still baffle me about the whole thing, some aspects of guilds that I haven't been able to satisfactorily relate to the social contract--haven't you ever noticed that a problem seems to solve itself more easily when you start tackling smaller problems that are near it than if you just throw yourself at it?) than a case of convincing anyone else to believe them.

Just an intellectual version of bouncing a ball on a tennis racket, nothing more. :)

EDIT: Ohgod misspelling! ;_;

Felippe · 12/01/06, 2:24 PM

Originally Posted by Proeliata

I stopped feeling that essays have to "prove" something a long time ago, so it's more of an analysis of the state-like qualities of the guild, as well as how the social contract holds with respect to it. Besides, why is a bunch of people getting together to play a game unworthy of a more in-depth analysis than "we're just here to play a game?"

That being said, it's all just for fun and not for a class or mass distribution or anything. It's more a case of getting my conclusions down on paper (as well as working out a few aspects that still baffle me about the whole thing, some aspects of guilds that I haven't been able to satisfactorily relate to the social contract--haven't you ever noticed that a problem seems to solve itself more easily when you start tackling smaller problems that are near it than if you just throw yourself at it?) than a case of convincing anyone else to believe them.

Just an intellectual version of bouncing a ball on a tennis racket, nothing more. :)

EDIT: Ohgod misspelling! ;_;

Let me put it this way, what you're describing would fall squarely into the humanities. For a wholesome project you analyze an historical problem (social contracts) because of its pertinence to a contemporary problem. With this method in mind, that would mean you see the current structure of guilds in World of Warcraft as a problem.

So let me rephrase, do you see this as a problem? Otherwise, your project just seems to boil down to simple mental exercises.

edit: which you seem to agree that's what your doing. I personally think that's somewhat of a waste of time, but to each his own.

Proeliata · 12/01/06, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by jakez0r

Let me put it this way, what you're describing would fall squarely into the humanities. For a wholesome project you analyze an historical problem (social contracts) because of its pertinence to a contemporary problem. With this method in mind, that would mean you see the current structure of guilds in World of Warcraft as a problem.

Are social contracts a problem? I had thought of them just as a political science theory, no more problematic than the Pythagorean theorem (although less easily provable). I don't see the current structure of guilds in WoW as a problem, I'm merely interested in the ways in which they can be likened to sovereign states in the real world, in which ways the similarities don't hold, and what the differences are in the "tensile strength," if you will, of the social contract in a game, which doesn't really matter, compared to the real world, where it does.

So let me rephrase, do you see this as a problem? Otherwise, your project just seems to boil down to simple mental exercises.

edit: which you seem to agree that's what your doing. I personally think that's somewhat of a waste of time, but to each his own.

I enjoy writing, and a mind, like any other muscle, must be excercised. Besides, half of my college education was mental excercises of various difficulty (hay there math!), and I think they were incredibly useful.

Zyla · 12/01/06, 5:55 PM

this thread took a dramatic turn. :teachdance:

Proeliata · 12/01/06, 5:57 PM

And a pretty dumb one at that. Sorry. :(

Elendril · 12/01/06, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Ghostz

Does it really make you that mad that I missed a space? Seems like your loosing your mind over a typo. :(

i'm torn as to whether to think the underlined section was intentional...

Elerion · 12/01/06, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by Tanoh

I assume you replied to Goggles and my discussion about ER (eu) horde group.. Why do you assume that those there sucks? It was people from other raid groups on the server that at the moment didn't do Naxxramas but certain players in those groups wanted to try it. So we all had good raid experience and adequate equipment. Not like we stood around in Orgrimmar "/2 LF29M Naxx! must be 60! whisp me plz!!!".

Goggles was the one that said Razuvious was a mighty accomplishment given the nature of the group. I was simply pointing out that it's probably the most forgiving PuG encounter past halfway in AQ. Whether your problem is gear, some mediocre players, low turnout, low raidtime or whatever else might be a challenge for a PuG - Razuvious doesn't really challenge any of those things. It's a quick clear, only dependant on a few people, very low gear dependancy, and doable with a small raid force. As long as you have two competent priests and four mildly competent tanks, the rest of the encounter could be done pretty much regardless of raid makeup, gear and player ability.

I'm far more impressed by Emps, Ouro and even Huhuran than the kill of Raz. All those bosses have mechanics that are less forgiving towards PuG/alt style raids.

Evert · 12/01/06, 6:49 PM

I'd like to see that essay Pro, I have been trying to explain to people how excatly i can have obligations to a video game, and some new vocabulary added to my argument would be handy

Proeliata · 12/01/06, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by Evert

I'd like to see that essay Pro, I have been trying to explain to people how excatly i can have obligations to a video game, and some new vocabulary added to my argument would be handy

I'll PM it to you if/when I finish it. :)

Quigon · 12/01/06, 8:29 PM

Originally Posted by Proeliata

Originally Posted by Evert

I'd like to see that essay Pro, I have been trying to explain to people how excatly i can have obligations to a video game, and some new vocabulary added to my argument would be handy

I'll PM it to you if/when I finish it. :)

Make sure to use the word "strategery" in your essay.

Zakath · 12/02/06, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by DeusEx

The "TelePUG" concept is a great for minimzing burnout syndroms, that almost everyone fally prey to sooner or later. Most people get bored on their mains, and who is to blame them for securing their fun by taking an alt to such a group. I would guess a happy player that is spending part of their time in alternate group is worth more to their "main guild", then is a burnt out player who will eventually quit the guild or even the game as whole. Who didn't wish to change class from time to time or simply group up with other good players on your server, you can't usally raid with because they are in another guild?

If someone enjoys the PUG runs so much more than raiding with his original guild, then, let's face it, it's a problem of the original guild in the first place. This guild has to ask itself some serious questions, how they treat their members. From my experience many mid-tier raiding guilds fail eventually because guild leadership develops some "delusions of power" so to speak. Many guilds chartas and policies are rife with articifical rules and restrictions forced upon their members that have no real rationale, but to sooth the illusion of power for the respective guild leadership: forced specs, awkward alt and reroll policies, loot councils, attendance requirements even for out-progressed content and the worst of all, fuzzy statements of "allegiance" and "loyality". As long as you participate in progression content with your guild, it shouldn't really be anyones business what you do during the rest of your gaming time. If guild leadership tries to coerce it's members to refrain from such an activity, they are simply abusing their members for the sake of their illusional power gain.

Perhaps it is not only "illusion of power" but the "WoW is serious business" fallacy. If people are having fun, that can't be good for progression right? Because if they would be really "committed" they wouldn't have fun, but would suffer through it for the "good of the guild".

Now that is a very interesting post. It pretty much resumes the situation. I have also been part of the Telepug on a regular basis and I'm having a great time raiding on a different toon than my main. I'm even more happy to play on my warrior after because I get some variety. I like playing my warrior and my rogue just as much and this "pug" gives me an opportunity to do something I wouldn't be able to do in my guild alone. I even enjoy the whole social aspect of raiding with people coming from many guilds and I like how those runs help developping the community on the server (something I haven't experienced since the BRD/Strat/UBRS days).

In my opinion, if the players who attend those pugs are still attending their guild's events and performing to the level they have always done, then the "pug" doesn't hurt the guilds in any ways. Heck, the schedule isn't even conflicting with the main guilds's. But, the issue is kinda moot now, since the pug leader was asked to leave his main's guild "for intern reasons".

LuckyAC · 12/02/06, 7:32 PM

They have actually formed a separate guild now, don't know how many people left their old guilds to join it, though.

Judia · 12/02/06, 7:45 PM

I point you to my first post in this thread...

Zakath · 12/02/06, 10:26 PM

And I point to DeusEx post, 2nd paragraph, 1st line ;)