Druid Tree of Life Party Spreadsheet

Cafe · 11/29/06, 11:27 AM

This spreadsheet simulates what a party of five level 60 Tree of Life Druids can do with stacking auras and Rejuvenations on one target. The formulas have been tested for accuracy. Also, the aura stacking has been confirmed to work with two Druids on the PTR.

The Tree of Life Rejuvenation HPS Spreadsheet:
(HTML) http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...gDt1NrPg&gid=1

If you have a Google Account you can view it via Google Spreadsheets. Here's the link:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...vp-NlkgDt1NrPg

The sample data is about what a Tier 2 geared Druid would have.

And if you don't want to click a link, here are some juicy bits:
Total Aura Bonus given to party: 345
Total HPS from 5 Rejuvs: 877
Rejuvenations will tick for around 500-550. (Mine currently ticks for 440ish)

(Disclaimer: Because this spreadsheet is being played with, these numbers are likely to be different than that in the spreadsheet.)

Draegan · 11/29/06, 11:54 AM

Can you test that with different party makeups with priests in there? I'm curious to see how that all balances out.

ntm · 11/30/06, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Cafe

And if you don't want to click a link, here are some juicy bits:
Total Aura Bonus given to party: 345
Total HPS from 5 Rejuvs: 877
Rejuvenations will tick for around 500-550. (Mine currently ticks for 440ish)

Are you talking about Rejuvenation in Tree of Life form? Or in caster form? I had my druid on test (who has about +741 Healing) and his rejuvenation was ticking for about 621 in Tree form.

Cafe · 11/30/06, 3:04 PM

This is in Tree of Life form, but the spreadsheet can have the Druid's out of Tree of Life form as well by setting column i to 0.

Bibdy · 11/30/06, 3:05 PM

The future of healing in raids consists of a personal mobile forest. Who'd have thought.

probiscus · 11/30/06, 3:18 PM

5 ToL druids in one raid? Why would you do that?

Bibdy · 11/30/06, 3:21 PM

Because HOTs are the way of the future now that they stack.

probiscus · 11/30/06, 3:26 PM

I'll believe it when I see it. Speaking as a rogue and a warlock I've yet to see an efficient use of a HoT. Isn't that what a lot of druids complain about, overhealing/healing inefficiency due to someone just flash healing the target they just HoT'd? I fail to see how an 800/tick HoT will increase effective healing. If I'm taking enough damage to justify 1, or even 2 of those HoT ticks, I'd hope I was in queue for something that didn't take 3,6,9,12, etc seconds to kick in.

Then again, I haven't raided at lvl 70, so I'm talking out of my ass.

Lokoki · 11/30/06, 3:34 PM

HoTs are not the way of the future. Even if you have 10 healers stacking HoTs for 600/tick, that's only 2000 HPS on a player. You're not going to be bringing 10 druids and priests on raids, much less having them spam HoTs. More likely, you'll have 3-4 spamming HoTs (should you choose that route), in which case, you're only getting 600-800 HPS per target.

HoTs are nice on steady raid-wide damage. But they're not that useful for in most other cases. I'm personally upset about the direction Blizzard is sending druid healing.

Merlyn · 11/30/06, 3:38 PM

Indeed HoTs are nice and all, but what kills tanks is burst. It doesn't matter if your tank eats a crit for 50% of his HP, then another for 60% (theoretical to prove a point.) Having a healer spamming direct healing spell is and always will be crucial.

Myonax · 11/30/06, 4:02 PM

6 Months ago priest healing mainly with heal 2 would have been considered blasphemy by most. Things change as the game mechanics and player skill evolves.

Cafe · 11/30/06, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by Merlyn

Indeed HoTs are nice and all, but what kills tanks is burst. It doesn't matter if your tank eats a crit for 50% of his HP, then another for 60% (theoretical to prove a point.) Having a healer spamming direct healing spell is and always will be crucial.

I agree with you that it's burst damage that usually kills tanks. What a few of you have overlooked is that for each Rejuvenation (and Regrowth HoT) active on the tank, you have a 2100+ instant heal from Swiftmend in your pocket.

I highly doubt that we'll see raids with five Tree of Life Druids, especially in one party. This spreadsheet simply predicts what it would be like.

In response to the Rogue/Warlock:
There are many different types of heals, each with their own use. I think that Shaman excel at what I call spot healing, which is healing any type of random damage done to those who aren't tanking.

Rejuvenation is no longer prohibitively mana inefficient, and Restoration Druids are going to be more liberal in their usage of it.

◊ Kaubel · 11/30/06, 5:18 PM

Originally Posted by probiscus

I'll believe it when I see it. Speaking as a rogue and a warlock I've yet to see an efficient use of a HoT.

That's because we don't waste our mana healing rogues and warlocks.

And it's not necessarily the druid's or spell's fault if the latter accounts for overhealing. Blame the lazy, non-druid healer who's too stupid to look at what spells are active and/or for not having a mod installed that shows what HoTs have been cast. Even still, being healed to full while a HoT is active, a tank is likely to take additional, immediate damage that can be attended to by the HoT. I don't see how that's not an efficient and effective use of my mana.

◊ castille · 11/30/06, 5:33 PM

I'm a former priest who went DPS, and I just cringe at the amount of overhealing that goes on in spot/FFA healing. For instance, take maexxna. Between web sprays, a healer could just HoT me and I would be fine for the next one. I'm DPSing my little heart out, I don't need to be topped off. This kind of periodic, extended damage is easily healed away with a single Rejuv or a Rejuv/Renew combo. But, it always gets snipped healed by a pally, a priest, or another druid. Crazy stuff.

Monsanto · 11/30/06, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Lokoki

HoTs are not the way of the future. Even if you have 10 healers stacking HoTs for 600/tick, that's only 2000 HPS on a player. You're not going to be bringing 10 druids and priests on raids, much less having them spam HoTs. More likely, you'll have 3-4 spamming HoTs (should you choose that route), in which case, you're only getting 600-800 HPS per target.

HoTs are nice on steady raid-wide damage. But they're not that useful for in most other cases. I'm personally upset about the direction Blizzard is sending druid healing.

I agree with this statement, though it should probably be refined to "Tree of LoL is not the way of the future." At least at 60, your performance as a druid will absolutely suck balls if all you think you're going to do is rejuv in treeform.

It would be a bit generous to assume that a Naxx-geared druid will have his rejuv ticking for 600 come patch day. That's only 200 health per second. Really, if you're going to cut out Healing Touch by shifting into Treeform then you've just nerfed yourself more than Blizzard ever could. "Oh but rejuvs stack now!" Yeah so? You're still only putting out 200 health-per-second, and if you want to think in those terms then healing touch "stacks" too. So what are you going to do to make up for only doing 200 health-per-second with rejuv? Start spamming regrowth? Or trying to get off perfect swiftmends every time?

Maybe Lifebloom will save the form, I don't know but I'm highly skeptical of it.

Bibdy · 11/30/06, 6:07 PM

Tanks die from burst damage, yes. What about everyone else?

The tank isn't the only guy in the raid you need to heal in a given fight.

Snow · 11/30/06, 6:20 PM

I keep reading this topic as "Tree of Life of the Party"

Anyway, Rejuv is mana efficient, and time efficient. 1.5 sec gcd for every rejuv which can potentially cure an enormous amount of damage if they tick all the way through. Obviously they are situational. Still, with paladins off tanking, non-resto shamans dps'ing, etc, ToL is looking like the king of spot healing.

Monsanto · 11/30/06, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by Bibdy

Tanks die from burst damage, yes. What about everyone else?

The tank isn't the only guy in the raid you need to heal in a given fight.

Unless other healers change what they are doing, HoTs will remain a poor choice to raid heal because some over-anxious healer will just top them off anyways. When I first got my 2-pc Dreamwalker bonus, I was throwing out rejuvs like crazy, just for the buff it was giving people. Now I've just gone back to HT because it makes me sad inside when I see my beautiful rejuv wasted as some other healer takes my target to 100% health.

So far I'm really liking the Grid addon. It combines a lot of functionality that you've seen in other mods. Like you can tell if a target has incoming heals, or HoTs on him. So maybe there is hope in the future for raid healing using HoTs.

aarkh · 11/30/06, 6:30 PM

HoTs are very powerful for raid healing and very good HP/S when you have a situation where the incoming overall raid damage is high and a lot of targets are taking damage, so that no one will heal the HoT:d targets to 100%, simply because they're too occupied with healing other targets. An example would be the later waves on Gothik's dead side, or the gay trash packs before Faerlina, or Sapphiron for groups without priests. On a lot of trash HoTs tend to be an excellent tool for raid healing, because almost everyone is taking damage on trash and often not enough to put them in immediate need for heals, but enough that slapping a HoT on them and then going to heal whoever is in need of immediate heals is a good idea.

And obviously as others have mentioned good healers will see if someone who isn't in need of immediate heals has a HoT ticking on them and not waste the mana healing them in any situation.

◊ Lord BEEF · 11/30/06, 6:40 PM

Regrowth from tree of life form really isn't that inefficient. With 20% off the cost it's not too far from healing touch really.

Druids in beta are reporting spirit levels of over 600 with kings and divine spirit when they gear and socket for it. In this magical world where you have a raid of five trees in a group that's +750 healing to each player.

That said I'd rather have a group of four trees and a shaman for insane chain heals and earth shields

Monsanto · 11/30/06, 7:12 PM

Just curious, how many people out there think that stacking ToL +healing bonuses are intended? I think it's a bug, and I think it will be removed. Most auras don't stack, and I'd be surprised if they make an exception for druids.

TheOnly · 11/30/06, 8:25 PM

A big stack of HoT's is no different than the old spam healing of flash heal.... Its pure HP/s. The only difference is if you heal-cancel. A big stack of HoT's aren't all ticking at the same time, 3, 6, 9, etc. They are each individually ticking along. Some ammount of HoT's on a tank + some heal canceling is efficient. Depending on the ratio of burst damage to continuous damage there will be a wide range that is optimal.
Non-canceled direct heals take care of the burst damage, as does thing such as Swiftmend.

Swiftmend is the fastest reactive burst damage repair in terms of Healing per Second short of nature's swiftness + max rank heal and requires druid HoT's on the tank. Claims that HoT's aren't good because it can't handle burst damage seem to neglect this fact. The topic here seems to be about Druids and their Tree of Life form, not HoT's and Priests, where the burst damage argument against stacked renew is significantly stronger.

It doesn't look like it makes much sense to stack a ton of ToL druids in one group, but it would probaby work fine. All that +healing, the HoT's, Lifebloom, and Swiftmend could pretty much handle any situation short of some really bad mortal strike-like effect. And if assigned to multiple targets (not just one tank or one group) a ToL druid should be extremely efficient at patching up many people at once scattered throughout the raid while maintaining a little extra HoT + swiftmend for a tank to aid a priest/shaman/pally on the tank.

When the game changes, don't apply new talents/abilities to old healing habbits -- new ones will evolve. The pure efficiency combined with (multitarget) healing throughput of ToL will end up finding some use. Not likely having 5 in one group, but it is certainly far from useless.

As for Warlocks and efficiency of HoT's --- a good warlock will pay attention to the incoming heals and make sure to life tap and not waste a single drop of a HoT.
This best achieved by trying to live with the mana bar no lower than 25% or higher than 75% most of the time, while keeping HP at 80% or so unless mana is over 75%, so that if you get too much incoming heals you can life tap a little extra to absorb them without waste. Warlocks that go to 0 mana, then life tap to full are healer mana wasters. Smaller chunks of life tap allow for more efficient use of heals and also don't tend to get 5 healers attention all at once and cause overheal. Knowing when to use a low rank life tap is also critical.
Of course, many warlocks just don't realize there is a HoT on them -- When I play my druid in a raid, I end up wanting to yell out to some locks I heal -- "TAP! Use the HoT on you! Tap! Tap! Tap!"

Melador · 12/01/06, 2:30 AM

Originally Posted by Monsanto

Unless other healers change what they are doing, HoTs will remain a poor choice to raid heal because some over-anxious healer will just top them off anyways. When I first got my 2-pc Dreamwalker bonus, I was throwing out rejuvs like crazy, just for the buff it was giving people. Now I've just gone back to HT because it makes me sad inside when I see my beautiful rejuv wasted as some other healer takes my target to 100% health.

Same here, but at least the 2-piece bonus can proc even when your target is at 100%.

In general, though, I agree with the comments on HoTs. They're good for steady, broad damage, but there aren't a ton of fights where that's the case. We'll see what fights in TBC are like, but I suspect I'm going to remain in caster form so HT is an option and I can amuse myself with a bit of balance dps when healing is light. Especially since when I tried it out ToL only increased my rejuv from 550 to 580 (at level 60), and doesn't make it THAT much more efficient. Not enough to give up HT and some pew pew, anyways.

Boevis · 12/01/06, 4:20 AM

Originally Posted by Monsanto

Just curious, how many people out there think that stacking ToL +healing bonuses are intended? I think it's a bug, and I think it will be removed. Most auras don't stack, and I'd be surprised if they make an exception for druids.

God I hope it stays the way it is. Look at the mana efficiency of those heals, getting aura's from 4 other druids the highest is getting 2643/288(?) = 9.17 healing per mana, and the HoT potential to Overheal is pretty high, so you're looking at closer to 6.88 hpm effectively.

Northerner · 12/01/06, 4:39 AM

People (myself included) tend to obsess about overhealing but frankly, it only matters if healer mana is a constraint during the encounter. Of course it often is exactly that but looking forwards to a raiding situation where tanks have very large relative HP pools and there is simply no way of sustaining maximal healing throughput, I can very much see HoTs being the staple healing method with big heals used to counter the spikes. Instead of tanks fluxing from full -> near dead and back to full and so on, I suspect we will have to see them spending much more time in that injured but out of one-rounding range. For chipping away in that sort of situation, HoTs are perfect.

So I guess all I can say is: "Extremely mana and time efficient HoTs that stack and apply the swiftmendable buff? Sign me up for that on my tank(s) please!"

Of course HoTs are far too often presently wasted on non-tanks but that's more of a raid-training issue than anything. As a Mage I typically see 'nothing', 'nothing', nine LHW/CH/FH/whatevers landing at the same time and obviously that's wasteful both of mana and of healer attention and time. When we are firing on all cylinders though, the occasional HoT is all I want or need outside of mass AE situations. IceBlock or a LIP seems to draw healing like a lightning rod draws, well, lightning I guess but that's life with the EM at times I suppose =)