Modeling Flurry with DW and WF - Page 3

• Vulajin · 12/01/06, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Skiace

I forgot to apply Elemental Weapons to flametongue and rockbiter calculations. that makes a big difference. it looks like off-hand flametongue may be dps-competitive after all. hmmmmm.

Remember that Rockbiter procs are reduced by armor, offhand Rockbiter procs are reduced by 50% (the offhand penalty), and all offhand Windfury swings are also reduced by 50% (the offhand penalty). Offhand Flametongue damage per proc is based on your main hand speed, not offhand speed (this may or may not be a bug, but it definitely works this way on the PTR), and it isn't reduced by 50%, nor by armor.

Skiace · 12/01/06, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Originally Posted by Skiace

I forgot to apply Elemental Weapons to flametongue and rockbiter calculations. that makes a big difference. it looks like off-hand flametongue may be dps-competitive after all. hmmmmm.

Remember that Rockbiter procs are reduced by armor, offhand Rockbiter procs are reduced by 50% (the offhand penalty), and all offhand Windfury swings are also reduced by 50% (the offhand penalty). Offhand Flametongue damage per proc is based on your main hand speed, not offhand speed (this may or may not be a bug, but it definitely works this way on the PTR), and it isn't reduced by 50%, nor by armor.

got all that now. also did a bit of searching here and found that flametongue procs get +10% of spell damage gear on each hit, so i added that as well.

playing around with the player input stats, i'm seeing flametongue as being the dps winner for the off-hand in all but the highest end of gear. it looks like windfury scales better, but it takes some pretty high AP to catch up to flametongue. if this is true in reality, i wouldn't be surprised if we see flametongue get nurfed such that the off-hand speed determines off-hand damage.

LordVoid · 12/02/06, 10:02 AM

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=9408

For now, I keep it simple by only considering white damage. Basically ALL you have to do to figure this out is to make your flurry formula take into account the effect that an extra attack has on it. So the chance that your current swing is 30% hasted is equal to the chance that either the last attack crit, or the attack before last crit and the next attack was not a SS proc, or the attack 3 attacks ago crit and the following 2 were not sword spec procs. Sword spec procs do NOT make use of haste. If your formula for calculating flurry takes into account the effect extra attacks have when they do not crit, then simply take your number of swings, multiply by the new flurry formula, and multiply by the additional percentage of swings you get from extra attacks, and you are golden.

I think that I may be a tad unclear in that post, but I'm confident my calculations have addressed some very pressing questions with how flurry and extra attacks interact.

• Vulajin · 12/02/06, 4:26 PM

Excellent work in that thread, LordVoid. I'd just like to point out, though, that Windfury swings are slightly different from Sword Spec swings, because they don't eat Flurry charges. Still, I wonder how one might incorporate your formula to model the effect of, say, Hand of Justice.

LordVoid · 12/03/06, 11:13 AM

Hand of Justice consumes flurry charges just like sword spec does. The only thing I'm unsure of is if it is posssible for sword spec and HoJ to proc on the same swing (or off of one another). If neither is true, then you just find a new value for s in my formula. Assuming they cannot compound proc, off the top of my head I'd think it would be 1 - ((1 - S) * (1 - H)), where S is your sword spec chance and H is your HoJ chance. Assuming fully specced sword spec, this comes to 6.9%

Edit: If you only have HoJ and no Sword Spec, then make the s in my original formula .02(2%).

Edit: Incidentally, if Windfury does not consume charges then there's no need to consider it in the Flurry formula.

Edit: Actually, yes we would have to take into account its ability to refresh flurry.

Are we talking about Windfury now or windfury after the patch? After the patch, isn't windfury a single swing that hits for double damage? Isn't it also yellow damage? Furthermore, does it always occur simultaneously with the regular swing that procced it? If so, then essentially that swing has two separate chances to refresh/activate flurry, and we can calculate accordingly (with relative ease).

LordVoid · 12/03/06, 2:33 PM

Since in 2 days windfury's current behavior will be strictly irrelevant, I will focus on the 2.0 version of Windfury.

I'm assuming that:
Windfury is a single hit for double damage.
Windfury is a yellow attack.
-yellow attacks do not consume flurry charges.
-yellow attacks refresh flurry when they crit.
Windfury occurs simultaneously with the swing that procced it.
Windfury can crit.

c = crit percentage.
w = windfury chance.

So I like to talk in terms of swings. You can convert it later by multiplying swings by average damage per swing. The chance that any given attack is flurried is equivalent to the chance that any of the last three swings themselves crit or procced a windfury that crit.

I've worked this chance out to be: 1- ((1-c) * (1-(w * c)))^3

Multiply this by .3 and you should have your average haste provided by flurry.

With 30% crit, 20% windfury proc rate, and 60 swings a minute before flurry, we have:

21.45329064% average haste and 72.871974384 swings a minute for white damage. 20% of this amount of swings is the number of WF procs.

Skiace · 12/03/06, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by LordVoid

Since in 2 days windfury's current behavior will be strictly irrelevant, I will focus on the 2.0 version of Windfury.

I'm assuming that:
Windfury is a single hit for double damage.

are you sure about that? i thought they changed it back to two extra yellow hits. surely someone on test can confirm this?

other than that, the mechanics you outlined are the ones i used in my sheet.

LordVoid · 12/03/06, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by Skiace

Originally Posted by LordVoid

Since in 2 days windfury's current behavior will be strictly irrelevant, I will focus on the 2.0 version of Windfury.

I'm assuming that:
Windfury is a single hit for double damage.

are you sure about that? i thought they changed it back to two extra yellow hits. surely someone on test can confirm this?

other than that, the mechanics you outlined are the ones i used in my sheet.

If windfury is two extra yellow attacks then we're looking at (cut and pasted for ease):

1- ((1-c) * (1-(w * (1- (1 - c)^2) )))^3

Multiply this by .3 and you should have your average haste provided by flurry.

With 30% crit, 20% windfury proc rate, and 60 swings a minute before flurry, we have:

22.54848835032% average haste and 73.529093010192 swings a minute for white damage. 20% of this amount of swings is the number of WF procs.

• Vulajin · 12/03/06, 5:12 PM

Windfury is two extra yellow attacks.
All your other assumptions on Windfury are correct.