Beta Tanking; Which class to play in TBC ?

Judia · 12/05/06, 6:24 AM

A relatively simple question for those people playing Beta.
I would like to find time to return to my "roots" as (Main) Tank, now that I have started my step down from raid leading. I have a couple of options (Paladin 60, Warrior 52, Druid 40), and a solid month or so to work out which character to take forwards into the expansion.

Ive tried wading through the mire of the WoW forums, but I thought Id cut to the chase and ask the warriors, druids and paladins currently playing Beta on their thoughts.

My initial impressions:
1) Bears on live are already close to warriors, being held back by itemization. The mostly fall behind on avoidance, and shieldwall. In beta they scale even better, and their itemization woes are apparently being adressed. Potentially the best tanks overall if nothing were to change ?

2) Warriors, both prot and non-prot seem to be rage starved. Limited AoE tanking ability and the mitigation advantage over druids is shrinking while druids pull further and further ahead in HP pools.

3) Paladins, the least specialized of the tanking trio in a given combat, but possibly less overall flexibility than druids if you count role changes between fights.

I would love to see a decent discussion on this topic, because at heart Im a min-maxer and I simply want to be the best tank possible. Im not here to discuss which class should be the best tank, or why, but some solid numbers on which class currently is the best on Beta. As an aside I give it 2 pages at most before it gets derailed into a "why prot warriors should be the best" "No druids should be just as good" debate.

R4zza · 12/05/06, 6:29 AM

To the issue of bear itemisation: i doubt that they would itemise it so bears would have a better choice of tanking gear than warriors. Apparently TBC will give warriors more ability to become hybrids and druids more ability to tank, but one isn't going to replace the other, i doubt we will be seeing druids replacing warriors as MTs in every guild any time soon (or ever).

I'd like to think the emphasis Blizzard have been putting on hybrids and Offtanks has been so they can create more dynamic endgame encounters, not so that off classes can actually replace warriors as tanks in the average fight.

krucifix85 · 12/05/06, 6:29 AM

OK, sorry for your first (e: second, as it was) response to be from an uneducated...

But with Druids moving up so steadily, and Warriors having such powerful skills at their disposal as it is, wouldn't it really depend on the raid content to find out which would be the best tanks?

Kink · 12/05/06, 6:31 AM

Well, DO you need to discuss which class should be the best tank, instead of what is currently the best.

This game is constantly changing, so if you want to have the best tank, then choose the class that is SUPPOSED to be the best tank and trust in Blizzard to make it that way. Because if bears suddenly become better tanks than warriors (Regardless of the current situation in Beta) warriors will kick up a fuss until its not so anymore, and then you have just wasted a bunch of time levelling a 40 druid when you could have levelled your warrior.

So unless you want to know the absolute best tank right now on beta even though its possibly going to change (if its NOT a prot warrior), then by all means gather yer info and then find out you are not the tank you could be when you ding 70 in 3months time on yer bear/pally =) !

Judia · 12/05/06, 6:36 AM

Originally Posted by Kink

Well, DO you need to discuss which class should be the best tank, instead of what is currently the best.

This game is constantly changing, so if you want to have the best tank, then choose the class that is SUPPOSED to be the best tank and trust in Blizzard to make it that way. Because if bears suddenly become better tanks than warriors (Regardless of the current situation in Beta) warriors will kick up a fuss until its not so anymore, and then you have just wasted a bunch of time levelling a 40 druid when you could have levelled your warrior.

So unless you want to know the absolute best tank right now on beta even though its possibly going to change (if its NOT a prot warrior), then by all means gather yer info and then find out you are not the tank you could be when you ding 70 in 3months time on yer bear/pally =) !

The problem is, what Blizzard want changes everytime you ask them.
Class descriptions, and blizzards perceptions of what a class should be able to do are not always realized (Mages being top damage dealers in TBC anyone ?).

Yes the game is liable to change, but the best source of informaiton (bar reading my horoscope) is to ask those people playing Beta what the game is like right this minute. Theorycraft (that I have seen) seems to be heavily in favour of bears with their scaling.

R4zza · 12/05/06, 6:37 AM

Originally Posted by krucifix85

uneducated...

Uneducated because i was writing guesses at content that no one has seen yet, in response to a question about things no one knows about yet?

What else is there to do?

Judia · 12/05/06, 6:39 AM

Originally Posted by R4zza

Originally Posted by krucifix85

uneducated...

Uneducated because i was writing guesses at content that no one has seen yet, in response to a question about things no one knows about yet?

What else is there to do?

I think he was refering to his own post, rather than yours :)

Evert · 12/05/06, 6:47 AM

warriors->druids->palidians

although swipe seems to be particularly awesome in 5 mans in beta right now. I would be -stunned- If warriors were not the optimum tank for most encounters 25 man raids.

e: Not to say that druids wont be viable, just saying that warriors will proabably be better for most encounters, all things being equal. And thats fine with me, really.

Kink · 12/05/06, 6:53 AM

Originally Posted by Judia

Originally Posted by Kink

Well, DO you need to discuss which class should be the best tank, instead of what is currently the best.

This game is constantly changing, so if you want to have the best tank, then choose the class that is SUPPOSED to be the best tank and trust in Blizzard to make it that way. Because if bears suddenly become better tanks than warriors (Regardless of the current situation in Beta) warriors will kick up a fuss until its not so anymore, and then you have just wasted a bunch of time levelling a 40 druid when you could have levelled your warrior.

So unless you want to know the absolute best tank right now on beta even though its possibly going to change (if its NOT a prot warrior), then by all means gather yer info and then find out you are not the tank you could be when you ding 70 in 3months time on yer bear/pally =) !

The problem is, what blizazrd want changes everytime you ask them.
Class descriptions, and blizzards perceptions of what a class hsould be able to do are not always realized (Mages being top damage dealers in TBC anyone ?).

Yes the game is liable to change, but the best source of informaiton (bar reading my horoscope) is to ask those people playing Beta what the game is like right this minute. Theorycraft (that I ahve seen) seems to be heavily in favour of bears with their scaling.

Yes, agreed, but beta is still a beta. So it may be the most up to date information, but I sincerely doubt it will be the final information (*IF* currently tanks are being out tanked by any of the other 2 classes =). I would say if all you care about is being a solid wall that mobs cannot break, go for your warrior. Be prot spec, tank like a beast and have fun.

You will not have bears being the main tanks in raid instances. I am sure they will be secondary tanks though, and in 5 mans... a good bear is a LOT better than a bad warrior.

People can discuss all they want, but it will come down to the above every time.

Ultimate · 12/05/06, 7:07 AM

I registered just to answer this question.

1. Warriors are at the end of the line all over again because of of gear. We won't see raiding gear for months after the expansion is released. That's one of the reason why druids and plds seems to be just as good as warrior tanks in expansion. We get gain the most from gear overall than any other class.

2. 5 man tanking isn't really important. It's 5 mans. I tank the current DM, BRS, Strat, Scholo with a 2 hand. My warrior is 7/9 dreadnaught and it's pointless for me to try and tank those instances when it's impossible for me to hold aggro on those types of mobs. 5 mans are the minority in the game. Once you have all the gear u need from them(which won't be long as they take rather short to complete) they merely become tools for money.

3. Blizzard isn't dumb by any means. They know that warriors are the primary tanking class. Why on earth would they give up the primary tank just to classes that can heal?

4. The main reason why warriors will never be looked over as the main tank is "Shield Block" Yeah plds can block, but they cannot control when they can. I'm only going off of mitigation here.(as how much threat can u pull off is strictly how good of a player you are and not worth talking about) A good tank can knockout crushing blows from any boss by 98% or better using shield block. (ex. since you haven't tanked high end yet; Gluth while enraged hits a 13k armor tank for 1700-2000 normal. 3.6-4k crushing. That's 100% dmg from a crushing alone. yeah druids have more armor, but they will never have enough armor to surpass warrior def stance and shield block. Also warriors in prot spec will have 16% magic reduction also. I block for over 300 in live now(with new talents). In the expansion warriors will be pushing 500-600 block. Right now before new talents i block for 240. On bosses like loatheb that hit for 1k-1.7k that's another 10-20% dmg reduction from the block value alone. Not to mention we can parry also.

So blizzard has made druids and plds viable small instance tanks, but warriors will still be the most viable overall tanks from of mitigation alone. Of threat will scale far faster than druids and plds. Druids weapon will never get better only there dmg from stats will go up. All melee know that you can have tons of stats, but it will never equal a weapon will tons more over all dps. Plds will require a lot more +spell dmg to hold threat better, because they require holy dmg to hold agro. It will be hard to balance good pld gear with good tanking stats and holy spell dmg and have the right stats. So warriors that read this and don't understand 100% why u won''t be replaced as main tank know you know. No amount of armor or any other factors will be able to come close to our shield block value of mitigation.

Boevis · 12/05/06, 7:12 AM

Mangle definately makes a Bear (or at least a cat) desired by a raid. It makes rupture/rip far better than evisc/FB, and even turns Rend and Deep Wounds(lol) into viable DPS worth considering when warriors consider spec. Oh, and Lacerate. Throw in iLotP and Bear is definately looking to be a group friendly spec. Warriors are a dime a dozen after all, Bears not so much.

Edit: Ultimate, a 1700-2k hit will only be capable of crushing for 2550-3k, unless you're assuming the "hit" was blocked. Crushing is always 50% more, Crits are the 100% more.

And currently "Paws" DPS is increased by Feral Attack Power, and is being based off of 90% 2H Weapon DPS (1H's are around 77% of a 2H). We are now scaling our damage better than Warriors in Defensive stance with 1H Spec.

Warriors are more versatile due to Potions, Trinkets, multiple cooldown abilities, Better CC Resistance, Magic Damage reduction, and as good (if not better, haven't seen the full math on devastate/shield slam at 70) Snap Aggro. I doubt warriors will ever stop being the main tanks, I fully expect Druids to take over as off-tanks across the board however.

Ulfgar · 12/05/06, 7:18 AM

Originally Posted by Ultimate

So blizzard has made druids and plds viable small instance tanks, but warriors will still be the most viable overall tanks from of mitigation alone. Of threat will scale far faster than druids and plds. Druids weapon will never get better only there dmg from stats will go up. All melee know that you can have tons of stats, but it will never equal a weapon will tons more over all dps.

I probably agree with your overall point - although I've never set foot in beta - but given that there's a decent set of +feral AP weapons kicking around now, this statement is not really correct. There should be a pretty clear upgrade line for druid DPS.

Ultimate · 12/05/06, 7:24 AM

Here is the defining point of going warrior, pld, or druid. Do you wanna pay for respec when u wanna do something else. I wanna MT right now, but later in the instance i wanna dps. Roll a feral druid. A prot warrior can't change rolls like that. Neither can a prot pld(well they can more so than a prot warrior). Or i wanna dps then MT later in the instance. Go fury warrior or druid. Feral druids spec allow for them to do both well. Fury warrior can switch out gear and be a decent tank(you won't have the block value or improved shield block). I also like to be the main healer in my groups sometimes also. Roll a pld or druids. A pld or druids can do all 3 no matter what spec, but never as well as a warrior that is specialized in a certain area.(except healing)

Edit: Yeah i forgot about druid weapons with +AP on them but that's clearly for threat generation. Threat generation isn't really an issue.. doesn't matter if you are miles ahead in threat of at the skin of the agro line. As long as u never lose the agro. And when gluth get's a crushing on me while enraged it's for over 3.5k everytime ><.

Tel · 12/05/06, 7:32 AM

Originally Posted by Ultimate

Here is the defining point of going warrior, pld, or druid. Do you wanna pay for respec when u wanna do something else. I wanna MT right now, but later in the instance i wanna dps. Roll a feral druid. A prot warrior can't change rolls like that. Neither can a prot pld(well they can more so than a prot warrior). Or i wanna dps then MT later in the instance. Go fury warrior or druid. Feral druids spec allow for them to do both well. Fury warrior can switch out gear and be a decent tank(you won't have the block value or improved shield block). I also like to be the main healer in my groups sometimes also. Roll a pld or druids. A pld or druids can do all 3 no matter what spec, but never as well as a warrior that is specialized in a certain area.(except healing)

Please please could you layout your post so that it doesnt make my eyes bleed? It would also make people take you alot more seriously if you took the time to use the correct spellings instead of 'wanna' 'pld' etc etc.

I very much disagree with what you're saying here. In TBC/2.0 a feral druid or protection paladin is going to be as useless in his secondary role as a prot warrior trying to dps. Especially until they hit 70 and have talent points to spread around a bit more. Feral druids arent all of one type either, kitty druids and bear druids DO spec differently if only minor variations on a theme too.

[edit] And why are +ap weapons for threat generation? Are you basing that on anything other than its what you'd like it to be? If so, feel free to share that info.

On the subject of being 'above the agro threshold' I'd argue that when tanking anything with a agro reducing ability, its essential that you're as far beyond that threshold as possible. Unless of course you really dislike all your new high threat mages?

Evert · 12/05/06, 7:43 AM

Ultimate, not to be a dick. but I bet you could afford the time to spell out "paladins" as well as the time to glance over your post for grammer and spelling.

As to your points, for number 2: The majority of the people who play this game never even see raid instances. Also, arguing that 5 mans aren't important because you will raid after them is like saying current raid instances are unimportant because the majority of the game is going to be level 70+ (well, not exactly, but still..)

For number 3: While Blizzard isnt nearly as dumb as a lot of people like to think, they do make some pretty screwy choices. Also, they get to define what a warrior is and is not, your personal ideas dont matter to them much. Nor does "Why on earth would they give up the primary tank just to classes that can heal?" make any sense. Although I will agree that warriors will be and should be the best tank for most encounters.

As for number 4, sheild block, parry, and the usefullness of +defense are all indeed advantages that warriors (and paladins) have over druids. But your ideas about threat are interesting. I'm not quite sure what "Of threat" is, but I assure you, druid's strength in tanking is in how absurdly well our threat scales. Druids on live now can generate more threat than warriors, and they will continue this into the expansion.

I'd go on but I have an early class, also Boevis beat me to the crushing blow mistake.