A relatively simple question for those people playing Beta.
I would like to find time to return to my "roots" as (Main) Tank, now that I have started my step down from raid leading. I have a couple of options (Paladin 60, Warrior 52, Druid 40), and a solid month or so to work out which character to take forwards into the expansion.

Ive tried wading through the mire of the WoW forums, but I thought Id cut to the chase and ask the warriors, druids and paladins currently playing Beta on their thoughts.

My initial impressions:
1) Bears on live are already close to warriors, being held back by itemization. The mostly fall behind on avoidance, and shieldwall. In beta they scale even better, and their itemization woes are apparently being adressed. Potentially the best tanks overall if nothing were to change ?

2) Warriors, both prot and non-prot seem to be rage starved. Limited AoE tanking ability and the mitigation advantage over druids is shrinking while druids pull further and further ahead in HP pools.

3) Paladins, the least specialized of the tanking trio in a given combat, but possibly less overall flexibility than druids if you count role changes between fights.

I would love to see a decent discussion on this topic, because at heart Im a min-maxer and I simply want to be the best tank possible. Im not here to discuss which class should be the best tank, or why, but some solid numbers on which class currently is the best on Beta. As an aside I give it 2 pages at most before it gets derailed into a "why prot warriors should be the best" "No druids should be just as good" debate.

To the issue of bear itemisation: i doubt that they would itemise it so bears would have a better choice of tanking gear than warriors. Apparently TBC will give warriors more ability to become hybrids and druids more ability to tank, but one isn't going to replace the other, i doubt we will be seeing druids replacing warriors as MTs in every guild any time soon (or ever).

I'd like to think the emphasis Blizzard have been putting on hybrids and Offtanks has been so they can create more dynamic endgame encounters, not so that off classes can actually replace warriors as tanks in the average fight.

OK, sorry for your first (e: second, as it was) response to be from an uneducated...

But with Druids moving up so steadily, and Warriors having such powerful skills at their disposal as it is, wouldn't it really depend on the raid content to find out which would be the best tanks?

Well, DO you need to discuss which class should be the best tank, instead of what is currently the best.

This game is constantly changing, so if you want to have the best tank, then choose the class that is SUPPOSED to be the best tank and trust in Blizzard to make it that way. Because if bears suddenly become better tanks than warriors (Regardless of the current situation in Beta) warriors will kick up a fuss until its not so anymore, and then you have just wasted a bunch of time levelling a 40 druid when you could have levelled your warrior.


So unless you want to know the absolute best tank right now on beta even though its possibly going to change (if its NOT a prot warrior), then by all means gather yer info and then find out you are not the tank you could be when you ding 70 in 3months time on yer bear/pally =) !

The problem is, what Blizzard want changes everytime you ask them.
Class descriptions, and blizzards perceptions of what a class should be able to do are not always realized (Mages being top damage dealers in TBC anyone ?).

Yes the game is liable to change, but the best source of informaiton (bar reading my horoscope) is to ask those people playing Beta what the game is like right this minute. Theorycraft (that I have seen) seems to be heavily in favour of bears with their scaling.

Uneducated because i was writing guesses at content that no one has seen yet, in response to a question about things no one knows about yet?

What else is there to do?

warriors->druids->palidians

although swipe seems to be particularly awesome in 5 mans in beta right now. I would be -stunned- If warriors were not the optimum tank for most encounters 25 man raids.

e: Not to say that druids wont be viable, just saying that warriors will proabably be better for most encounters, all things being equal. And thats fine with me, really.

Yes, agreed, but beta is still a beta. So it may be the most up to date information, but I sincerely doubt it will be the final information (*IF* currently tanks are being out tanked by any of the other 2 classes =). I would say if all you care about is being a solid wall that mobs cannot break, go for your warrior. Be prot spec, tank like a beast and have fun.

You will not have bears being the main tanks in raid instances. I am sure they will be secondary tanks though, and in 5 mans... a good bear is a LOT better than a bad warrior.

People can discuss all they want, but it will come down to the above every time.

I registered just to answer this question.

1. Warriors are at the end of the line all over again because of of gear. We won't see raiding gear for months after the expansion is released. That's one of the reason why druids and plds seems to be just as good as warrior tanks in expansion. We get gain the most from gear overall than any other class.

2. 5 man tanking isn't really important. It's 5 mans. I tank the current DM, BRS, Strat, Scholo with a 2 hand. My warrior is 7/9 dreadnaught and it's pointless for me to try and tank those instances when it's impossible for me to hold aggro on those types of mobs. 5 mans are the minority in the game. Once you have all the gear u need from them(which won't be long as they take rather short to complete) they merely become tools for money.

3. Blizzard isn't dumb by any means. They know that warriors are the primary tanking class. Why on earth would they give up the primary tank just to classes that can heal?

4. The main reason why warriors will never be looked over as the main tank is "Shield Block" Yeah plds can block, but they cannot control when they can. I'm only going off of mitigation here.(as how much threat can u pull off is strictly how good of a player you are and not worth talking about) A good tank can knockout crushing blows from any boss by 98% or better using shield block. (ex. since you haven't tanked high end yet; Gluth while enraged hits a 13k armor tank for 1700-2000 normal. 3.6-4k crushing. That's 100% dmg from a crushing alone. yeah druids have more armor, but they will never have enough armor to surpass warrior def stance and shield block. Also warriors in prot spec will have 16% magic reduction also. I block for over 300 in live now(with new talents). In the expansion warriors will be pushing 500-600 block. Right now before new talents i block for 240. On bosses like loatheb that hit for 1k-1.7k that's another 10-20% dmg reduction from the block value alone. Not to mention we can parry also.

So blizzard has made druids and plds viable small instance tanks, but warriors will still be the most viable overall tanks from of mitigation alone. Of threat will scale far faster than druids and plds. Druids weapon will never get better only there dmg from stats will go up. All melee know that you can have tons of stats, but it will never equal a weapon will tons more over all dps. Plds will require a lot more +spell dmg to hold threat better, because they require holy dmg to hold agro. It will be hard to balance good pld gear with good tanking stats and holy spell dmg and have the right stats. So warriors that read this and don't understand 100% why u won''t be replaced as main tank know you know. No amount of armor or any other factors will be able to come close to our shield block value of mitigation.

Mangle definately makes a Bear (or at least a cat) desired by a raid. It makes rupture/rip far better than evisc/FB, and even turns Rend and Deep Wounds(lol) into viable DPS worth considering when warriors consider spec. Oh, and Lacerate. Throw in iLotP and Bear is definately looking to be a group friendly spec. Warriors are a dime a dozen after all, Bears not so much.

Edit: Ultimate, a 1700-2k hit will only be capable of crushing for 2550-3k, unless you're assuming the "hit" was blocked. Crushing is always 50% more, Crits are the 100% more.

And currently "Paws" DPS is increased by Feral Attack Power, and is being based off of 90% 2H Weapon DPS (1H's are around 77% of a 2H). We are now scaling our damage better than Warriors in Defensive stance with 1H Spec.

Warriors are more versatile due to Potions, Trinkets, multiple cooldown abilities, Better CC Resistance, Magic Damage reduction, and as good (if not better, haven't seen the full math on devastate/shield slam at 70) Snap Aggro. I doubt warriors will ever stop being the main tanks, I fully expect Druids to take over as off-tanks across the board however.

I probably agree with your overall point - although I've never set foot in beta - but given that there's a decent set of +feral AP weapons kicking around now, this statement is not really correct. There should be a pretty clear upgrade line for druid DPS.

Please please could you layout your post so that it doesnt make my eyes bleed? It would also make people take you alot more seriously if you took the time to use the correct spellings instead of 'wanna' 'pld' etc etc.

I very much disagree with what you're saying here. In TBC/2.0 a feral druid or protection paladin is going to be as useless in his secondary role as a prot warrior trying to dps. Especially until they hit 70 and have talent points to spread around a bit more. Feral druids arent all of one type either, kitty druids and bear druids DO spec differently if only minor variations on a theme too.

[edit] And why are +ap weapons for threat generation? Are you basing that on anything other than its what you'd like it to be? If so, feel free to share that info.

On the subject of being 'above the agro threshold' I'd argue that when tanking anything with a agro reducing ability, its essential that you're as far beyond that threshold as possible. Unless of course you really dislike all your new high threat mages?

Ultimate, not to be a dick. but I bet you could afford the time to spell out "paladins" as well as the time to glance over your post for grammer and spelling.

As to your points, for number 2: The majority of the people who play this game never even see raid instances. Also, arguing that 5 mans aren't important because you will raid after them is like saying current raid instances are unimportant because the majority of the game is going to be level 70+ (well, not exactly, but still..)

For number 3: While Blizzard isnt nearly as dumb as a lot of people like to think, they do make some pretty screwy choices. Also, they get to define what a warrior is and is not, your personal ideas dont matter to them much. Nor does "Why on earth would they give up the primary tank just to classes that can heal?" make any sense. Although I will agree that warriors will be and should be the best tank for most encounters.

As for number 4, sheild block, parry, and the usefullness of +defense are all indeed advantages that warriors (and paladins) have over druids. But your ideas about threat are interesting. I'm not quite sure what "Of threat" is, but I assure you, druid's strength in tanking is in how absurdly well our threat scales. Druids on live now can generate more threat than warriors, and they will continue this into the expansion.

I'd go on but I have an early class, also Boevis beat me to the crushing blow mistake.

From what I've gathered about the coming expansion is, until warriors get abnormally good gear and Blizz fixes every threat generating skill, druids will be a lot better off. They have superior mitigation and tons more dodge now to almost come close to our dodge+parry. They have a -3% crit talent which is what we'd get with 75 defense. Their threat generation is off the chart with every move scaling with gear while our is as static as its been since we were level 10 as well as incredible multi-aggro tools. With their new incredible hp buff, they'll scale very well with stamina gear as well. Their itemization ain't bad now either, examples;
http://thottbot.com/beta?i=16071 - 2377 armor
http://thottbot.com/beta?i=16172 - 2105 armor
If more stuff like that is implemented, and I'm sure there's a lot of stuff not reported yet, their armor will shoot up amazingly.

These are just my findings.

Have you seen anyone else posting like this? No. You want to know why? Because those who do get banned.

Consider this a warning and happy holidays!

Yeah AP weapons-the ones that say +AP in different forms- won't help a druid take less dmg. Also a heal from a feral druids, protection plds, or shadow priest is a heal none the less right? A feral druid going more kitty or more bear won't be a 41 point dump into another trees also.

edit: Sorry about the posting errors. New to these boards, and i just got up. Still sitting in a dark room.

I dont think he was saying it was the same, he said "what we'd get with 75 defense" and thats exactly true.

(quest lecture, totally skipped it)

He was talking about specifically prot warriors here, though. Prot warriors don't dps when they're not tanking, unless you count hamstring spamming with a nightfall as dps. The most frustrating part of this whole issue is the fact that druids everywhere are saying "Well, we speced to tank so we should be good tanks, if you want to tank then spec prot!" Except that being speced feral brings more than just tanking to the table, AND it's viable in pvp. A warrior that specs prot is stuck PvE tanking, that is ALL they have. No pvp viability whatsoever. At the moment I am really not feeling that kind of tradeoff is worth it anymore. A weird sidenote to all of this, is that if we could get some kind of system where we could swap between 2 talent specs with some kind of a cooldown on the swap (3-6 hours or so I'd say), then a large portion of my gripes about these things would go away. I'm growing quite tired of never being able to play the class I enjoy most(this is on a pvp server, also) outside of a raid because I'm pigeonholed as prot spec. A feral druid can.

I do think there are some gameplay balance issues here, but I feel that they are relatively minor compared to the funfactor issue which is the big problem I'm feeling right now.

Look one post above yours Ultimate. Then edit yer post =).

And this thread is a tad pointless.

If all you want to be is the best tank, be a prot warrior.

If you want to be a healing tank who can DPS, be a feral druid. Note a feral druid that is well played can equal a warrior in a 5man instances.

If you want to be a healer/Tank a bit of DPS, be a paladin (or if you want to be banned off the forums, be a pld).

Nothing else to it. Thats how it will be. 10 and 25man raids will always look for warriors for their main tanks.

This post should answer eveything tbh!

The core of "who will be tanking" argument is basically rooted in the fact that the 3 tanks have very different styles.

Warriors: Kings of Boss-tanking, have the highest damage-mitigation, and skills that reduce the possibility of getting crowd-controlled.
Druids: The instance/add tank, a druid is very good at taking on several tough opponents at the same time. Swipe is the bomb here.
Paladins: The AoE tank, can hold aggro on an "infinite" amount of enemies. No

For most 40 man raids, you just stack enough warriors, so you have 1 tank / mob in a pull.
For 5 mans, you only bring 1 tank, which means druids will shine. If you have a lot of non-elite pulls, a paladin will also serve you well.

If you look at the nef fight, each stage appeals to a different tanking type.
Stage 1: Elite mobs, Druids are better at making sure none of the dragonkin get loose.
Stage 2: Boss, warrior tank neffie.
Stage 3: The zerg, paladin tank.

If you want the "prima-donna" starlet main-tank role, i'd still expect it to be the warrior.

Let's not forget Spell Reflection. I think it's highly likely that in many encounters tanks will need to deflect spells that will otherwise cripple/kill him. Mind you I don't think bears are better than warriors anyway, but I guess I'm biased..

For now it's the druids, and unless they change the beta game drastically I don't see this changing at all.
Druids actually scale better with gear than warriors atm, at least when it comes to threat.
The avoidance is pretty much equal (druids have insane dodge rates as feral specc) and the mitigation is pretty much equal also (including def stance), but I'm certain druids will overcome this later in the game.
But of course, warriors can block and thus neglect any crushing blows. But the news about this that it will be fixed in a upcoming patch (blue response apparently, I haven't seen it myself but people claim a blue posted it so take it with a grain of salt I guess).

It's a lot harder for a warrior to tank in TBC than it is on Live due to the rage starvation and due to the fact that most trash got some tricks up their sleeve, be it knockdown, stun or simple deaggro. Mixed that with 8 mobs pulls and you're totally screwed as a warrior.

I think Paladin / druid tanks are here to stay, the big question is whether they want to completely neglect warriors in 5 man instances (don't forget that you will get pretty good gear in hard-mode 5 man instances so don't dismiss them and say they will be useless later on) or not.
If you want to be a 5 man power house or perhaps even 10 man, I would go druid. If you're looking to single tank bosses in 25 man instances, then I would still put my vote on the warrior even though nothing points in the favor of the warrior atm.