I haven't seen a post that covers Loatheb's MT healing in any great detail so I'm making this post in hope for input and new thoughts and ideas.
We hit Loatheb up last night for our first time and spent ~4 hours on him. We had 12 healers for about half the night(we normally have 14-16 on, but tonight just had 12 at raid invites) and got a 13'th for the last 3-4 attempts. Adding the 13'th healer didnt seem to improve much of anything. We still encounterd the same issues that we could keep him up sometimes for 2:40 (we were going completely dry so max time we could hold) and sometimes he would go down once a full rotation had gone through and some of us were all on cooldown and sometimes he would go down on a damage spike (if you can call loatheb's damage spikey) usually to a druid (3sec cast?)
We used La Vendetta for a healer rotation tool (bigwig's plugin we just couldnt get to work right). We had every healer in the raid with this mod and we can all visually see the healer rotation list (in order of rotation), who has healed and is on cooldown, how long they have left on cooldown, and who is not on cooldown. We tried using its wisper feature but for some reason it just generated to much confusion for some of our healers (lol?), so we just kept track of it visually and everything got noticibly better after that.
Rotation schemes I rejected:
If you chain cast down the rotation then at about 40-45 seconds we would all be on cooldown: 4*3sec + 9*2.5sec + 10sec = 44.5 sec, the 10 sec being combined "reaction time / lag" for healers.
If we all healed at say 5 second intervals then from what we experienced last night the tank could possibly die in some cases where he need the heal and we would have overheal in some cases.
If we went with the rule of, try to heal in 5 second intervals but do heal if the tank needs it then we could conceivably all be on cooldown again at the end of a 1min cycle.
The healing scheme I chose and personally think is best:
MT using flask, stoneshields, and a few other +hp buffs. Running with just a bit over 9k hp I believe (can go higher, but using some avoidance pieces over pieces with minor sta increases)
We setup a rotation similar to what is shown below to split up the larger healers and AH/Inspiration procs:
1.Shaman
2.Druid
3.Priest
4.Shaman
5.Druid
6.Priest
7.Druid
8.Shaman
9.Priest
10.Druid
11.Shaman
12.Priest
13.Priest
I instructed our healers to heal in order of the list. Once you saw the healer 2 steps before you in the rotation go on cooldown, get prepared to heal. I told them to heal when the tank needed it, don't just go at set inervals or chain cast down the rotation. When you see the tank get to ~70-80% hp let your heal land. This minimizes wasted overheal and allows for periods of time when the tank has alot of avoidance and simply doesn't need the healing. This scheme still has the fault of all of our healers potentially being on cooldown at the end of a 1min cycle and if there is any way to avoid this speak up please :). However I feel that this is the most reasonable strategy.
Our results - Occasionally at the end of our 1 min cycle we would all be on cooldown and the MT would die before healer #1 got off cooldown. In most of those cases however if we didn't heal the tank when he needed it he would have just died earlier in the previous cycle. In those cases it just seemed tank damage was above healer output.
Occasionally the MT would die mid rotation seemingly to heals just landing to late (this case I think its just our unfamiliarity with the fight, cases of dieing mid rotation should go away as we get more experience with loatheb healing).
Last night we did not have a priest using 8/8 trans (my dumb ass has it, but for some moronic reason I didnt think to use it last night when it mattered). The next time we will have 2 priests using it adding a HoT for 30 seconds of the 1min cycle healing for ~250 hp every 3 seconds.
Other than adding 8/8 trans into the mix and getting more comfortable with the fight, I can't think of anything really that we can do to improve our base strategy. I'm weary of adding a 14th healer. Our DPS on loatheb ended up being a best of 68% at the 2min mark with 13 healers.
Chain casting works with 14 healers when you account for a 1-2 second delay between people reading that its their turn and actually pushing their cast button. With about 4-5 druids in the rotation with their 3 second heals the full rotation will end just under 60 seconds. That's the method I use for my guild on this. We go in with 14 in rotation, 1 druid out of rotation for emergencies. I'd like to cut down to 12-13 but my guild has issues when we allow people to decide on their own when to do something, rather than just executing on command. I normally only have a very small gap between the 14th healer finishing his heal, and the 1st healer's cooldown ending, its not too much of an issue.
Other thing to consider is that when you get some of the other buffs on your MT he'll have nearly 11-12k HP for a Tuaren, and ours hit 20k with LifeGiving and LastStand on.
We've found 13 healers to be the sweet spot for Loatheb, 12 sometimes gets iffy, and 14 is unecessary (we'll just leave a paladin out of the rotation for emergency LoH or something). However, your assumption about not landing heals when a tank is at full is a begging for trouble. From the beginning (we use Vendetta to govern our rotation, which just rotates the healers as the debuff hits) we've been very strict on always letting the heal land, no matter the tanks health. If you leave a 15 second gap in your debuffs for the next minute because the tank dodged/parried 4 times in a row, he may very well die. Space your 8/8 Transc priests out so the HoT is never overwritten, and space your druids as well. Don't use NS on the first pass unless the tank will die otherwise, it'll hose your rotation just as much as a healer waiting to heal.
Same we used 13 healers with a 14th for emergency. As was mentioned before, having a healer wait can be the death of the MT a min or two down the line, when there is a 5-8 sec gap in b/n heals.
The other point to keep in mind is that the hardest healing is going to be at the start since your healers don't have the spore buff (so no Insp/AH). Have your priests pop inner focus at the start for increased chance at Insp...and have your healers use their trinkets as well (ZG etc) to get those timers going.
The final point is that with ZG/Nef buffs (and Darkmoon faire if you can get it - the 10% to armor is really good for the MT) your tank will be taking less damage than during your initial attempts.
We have 3x prot spec tanks, none of which are tauren heh. Damned haxx racial... *mutters*
Regarding heals. I had the idea of: If the tank doesn't need heals, throw a HoT on him when its your turn? Say tank is 95-100% hp and your 5sec heal slot is expiring just renew/rejuv the tank should help I'd imagine.
Other thing to consider is that when you get some of the other buffs on your MT he'll have nearly 11-12k HP for a Tuaren, and ours hit 20k with LifeGiving and LastStand on.
Our tank was at 14,006 HP when we pulled. Our healers were quite comfortable, even under the pressure.
As far as healing strategy, I've always favored a cycle in which everyone just heals in turn, watching the tank's HP. You shouldn't be bringing little enough healing power that this has a risk of running into Corrupted Mind cooldowns.
We started working on Loatheb last night- 3 hours working with the healers and no pots (everyone brought lots of bandages) trying to get the fight solid in people's minds. I have no actual experience killing him, but my thoughts from a similar pov.
A 14th healer seems like a solid option going with a traditional raid makeup- we were working with 15, and towards the end I think we had a 16th priest attempting the VE rotations to get baseline numbers before the 2.0 buff. With 15 we ran into the debuff only once or twice at the very start- we were using healer macros (/tar kelris /cast GHeal /5 Bekah healed MINEVA NEXT! /w Mineva GOGOGOGOGO.) Biggest problem there was that the announce and whisper would fire as you started casting and people didn't feel comfortable waiting 3-5 seconds to start their own cast and send it down the chain. So we'd have heals firing off on top of each other occasionally and run out with 10+ sec left on the initial caster. Then we ditched the macros and used the raid leaders mod (I think it was the big wigs one) and that spaced us out a lot more comfortably. Even so, it felt a little dicey occasionally. The longer the practice, the more solid it felt though- I'm really happy we decided to focus on practice only before the patch and put it into effect later this week. (assuming, of course, we can get Noth down)
Then again we were able to get to the target % reliably with 38 people and 15-16 healers by the end of the night. Are you sure your healers are also contributing dps? Every little bit helps.
Another option if you're concerned about both the dps constraint and are spacing your heals out greatly by bringing lower numbers of healers is to consider a shadow priest. Even at 300dps they're putting out 90hps which is the equivalent of a 5400 hp heal (larger than your priest base will be able to average) It's a steady stream of healing that should take the edge off even the limited spike damage in the fight, and if you have one that's well geared (5-600+dmg from gear alone), 600dps (the equivalent of a 10800hp heal- larger than any of your healers will manage- period.) isn't out of the ballpark- especially with the debuff changes and addition of VT. If you get them in on a spore rotation (doesn't need to be the first, just don't leave them in the cold ya?) the HPS can go *significantly* higher as each VE tick has a chance to crit on top of the +dmg % -> heal conversion.
Obviously not the right choice for all raids, but you seem worried about the dps *and* the healing.
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in EJBSG 10 -My instincts tell me that we cannot sacrifice democracy just because the president makes a bad decision.
Regarding heals. I had the idea of: If the tank doesn't need heals, throw a HoT on him when its your turn? Say tank is 95-100% hp and your 5sec heal slot is expiring just renew/rejuv the tank should help I'd imagine.
Honestly, since mana isn't an issue, you're better off assuming that the he will hit your tank sometime in between you starting a heal and it landing. If your priests aren't using 8/8 Transc, they should be using 4 piece Faith for the Armor of Faith on crit proc (obviously tailored to this fight).
When learning the fight we did it completely dry, and were having issues keeping the tank up. We added Stoneshields to the mix and were able to consistently keep the tank up until it was time to reset him. Also, I hope you guys aren't going till death every turn. Go until the first Doom hits, and then move him through the gate to reset the encounter. If you can get him below 65% consistently by that point it is time to World Buff.
Once you buff your tank will have a ton more hps, he will be taking less damage, and your healers will be healing for more. But while you are learning it, make sure your tank is reasonable buffed, Titans and Stoneshields are the bare minimum to be able to see if your healers can keep up with the damage. Also, we tended to use 15 or so healers, but have never had an issue with DPS with lots of rogues, mages, and fury warriors.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
As was discussed in one of the other Loatheb threads, having healers wait to prevent overhealing is generally a bad idea in the long run. The Tank may have dodged for 6 seconds during the initial minute, however in the next minute those 6 seconds may be 3 hits and a Doom - you're going to want that heal NOW, not after the 6 seconds is up.
My guild is in the same spot as Bekah (maybe a couple days behind) and I'm seeing the same problems with the macro cast method (You would think people could handle /w priest You're Next, Begin Cast in 4 Seconds!!! but murphy's law prevails) I'm thinking about having people hit the whisper macro when they see their heal land, so long as people begin after they get the whisper, reaction time/lag should space out the healers enough, I hope.
If you're really having issue with not having your healers wait til a heal is needed, you could switch to a Feral Druid MT - he'll get hit more often, but for less, you won't see streaks of 10 seconds without damage and depending on your tanks gear (hopefully 6/9 Dread) a Bear will end up with more overall HP (no Last Stand/LGG though)
Another thing to consider with Shadowpriest VE is Feral Druid's new iLotP, for Horde that can't get JoL, it could make the difference in your melee living past Doom 8.
On the earlier 30 second spaced Dooms, your Healers can do the bandaging on the DPS giving them 8 seconds more time to DPS.
As was discussed in one of the other Loatheb threads, having healers wait to prevent overhealing is generally a bad idea in the long run. The Tank may have dodged for 6 seconds during the initial minute, however in the next minute those 6 seconds may be 3 hits and a Doom - you're going to want that heal NOW, not after the 6 seconds is up.
I don't see how it is a bad idea; when someone waits 6 seconds, it means everyone healing after him also has a leeway of 6 seconds to work with. In other words, the entire list shifts 6 seconds backwards for the next rotation. The hypothetical 3 hits and a Doom would have been covered by people before the guy who delayed, as the rotation would have had 6 seconds less of incoming damage to deal with.
X = hypothetical spike
|<-------------------1 minute------------------>|
|...............................................|.................X..........
|...1....2...3....4...5....6....7...8....9...10..11..12...1...2...3.4...5...6
Typical healing rotation. Spike is handled by person 3 in rotation
|...............................................|.................X..........
|...1....2........3....4...5....6....7...8....9...10..11..12...1...2.3...4...
3 hypothetically delayed earlier in the fight due to an avoidance streak.
Spike is handled by person 2 in rotation
The benefit, on the other hand, is that if a tank spikes, causing 2-3 people to burn their heals in the space of a few seconds, a healer that delays on a subsequent string of lucky avoidance rolls will help buy time for the debuff to wear off.
Of course, this only applies if a non-static (static being everyone casts their heal at exactly x seconds apart regardless of tank hp) healing chain is used.
(*Edited code block when I realized it crapped out at 1024x768)
Well dood, I used the search tool. Its not like I didn't try to find this information on my own. I searched for ~2 hours before I posted so dont go get your panties in a wad. There were ~7 threads with the word Loatheb in their title. I searched title only because there were like 40 bajillion if I searched title and text. Trust me... I know how to look for information, dont go thinking I'm some noob idiot that has just found this forum and wants to flood it with noob posts please. Search my name, I don't often (rarely ever) post "junk". I ask for input as well as give output here.
Yes there were some topics on MT healing but none with enough detail that satisfied me. If gurg or that Kabul feel this thread needs to be shit heaped so be it, but I personally feel a thread dedicated to specifically MT healing and all of its challenges is useful hence my reason for posting this.
Even before I posted this thread I was reluctant. You know why? Because of the post above me(edit 2x posts above me).. I knew someone was going to do that. For some reason some people that frequent this forum automatically assume all new posts if they don't have 70 pages of material on them are garbage and feel the need to point it out.
Sorry... just very frustrating. Thank you everyone that has responded so far with useful information.
Generally agreed with above. Every set of somehow related topics doesn't have to be lumped into one enormous thread which is impossible for a newcomer to read.
On topic. Yes, to say different what someone said above:
The commonly noted objection to the "heal by watching tank HP scheme" is that "a gap in one rotation might lead to a gap at bad time in the next rotation." I don't see how this makes any sense.
If there's a lucky string of misses, and I don't need to heal until 12 seconds after the previous healer, the only way that this will cause a problem is if 60 seconds worth of damage get dealt to the tank within the next 48 seconds (causing the 12sec gap to reappear). And that possibly is equally deadly no matter which healing plan you use.
Yes. Either way, Loatheb will put out a certain amount of damage per minute. No matter if you use a reactive or set healing order, if he puts out more damage per minute than your raid healing per minute, your tank is dead. Now, if you use a reactive healing strategy, you are using every bit of your possible healing power, giving you a greater chance of being able to out heal Loatheb's damage per minute. If you are using a set healing order, you will be wasting healing unless his damage is amazingly stable. This strategy will drop your raid healing per minute closer to the damage out put. However, most raids take a slight oversupply of healers than absolutely necessary and the set healing order is generally easier to set up/execute so this isn't too much of a problem.
If you leave a 15 second gap in your debuffs for the next minute because the tank dodged/parried 4 times in a row, he may very well die.
If your raid is healing reactively, there is no way having more healers with no healing debuff can possibly hurt your raid. As someone else already posted, it can only help because more people are available to heal if any spike damage does occur.
Anyways, as far as what our guild does- anywhere from 12-16 healers (have done with multiple raid compositions). We just keep the healers in alphabetical order not caring about class, except for the shadow priest who is at the end and out of rotation (using VE in the MT group). La Vendetta sends a tell telling you when your turn is coming up, I think two healers before your turn.
Reactive healing- You want your heal to land such that if it crits no or little hp will be wasted, and if it doesn't crit the tank won't die. With our 12k+ hp tank, this usually means start casting a heal when it's your turn, cancel and repeat until the tank is 75% hp or lower, with your goal to have your heal land at 75%. If the tank reaches 50% (spike dmg) hp the next healer in line (who is watching the health bars because he knows his turn is coming) heals immediately, so both heals land at nearly the same time and the tank is again at 100%. Using this heal cancelling leaves almost half the healers without the healing debuff until the dooms start hitting, having the next healer ready should the tank drop to 50% hp also lets us heal through unannounced healer disconnects without trouble.
Greater stoneshield pots on MT > shadow pots on MT. We personally never have any pallies out of rotation for LoH, though we have let druids stay out to kitty dps when healer heavy before.
As far as I know only 1 priest wears 8 piece trans and probably switches into dps/hybrid healing gear after landing the 8 piece renew reight before pull. Any priest in 8 piece trans can't possibly carry their share of the dps.
We actually run a rather successful healer macro channel + whisper, but at first like you guys it didn't work out so well because of people starting too soon. I had everyone install HealerAssist just for Loatheb so that you can watch the person in front of you know where his heal is at + what the tanks life is at and how much his heal should bring the tank to all in one frame. This calms people down and they aren't prematurely healing.
Note - Even with the amount of Loatheb threads it is amazing someone always brings up the myth that reactionary healing is bad for Loatheb.
Note - Even with the amount of Loatheb threads it is amazing someone always brings up the myth that reactionary healing is bad for Loatheb.
"Bad" is a judgement call, but its certainly more complex, to no appreciable gain (in fact, maybe lessening the time spent doing damage for some healers). We don't have random tank deaths with 13 healers using what is referred to above as a "static" rotation. Perhaps a reactive healing rotation would let us get by with fewer healers (as I pointed out, under 13 and a static rotation is significantly more prone to error), I'm not sure. So again, it may not be "bad" or even ineffective, but its certainly not necessary, why make things more complicated than they have to be?
As far as I know only 1 priest wears 8 piece trans and probably switches into dps/hybrid healing gear after landing the 8 piece renew reight before pull. Any priest in 8 piece trans can't possibly carry their share of the dps.
Bring 2 or more, and one can think about replacing a healer with real DPS. An 8pc Priest (Horde) can still hit 40k damage while being a mage's bandage buddy, which is beyond what is necessary from a healer. The free renews are such sweet icing.
I began to lose faith in the healers in this thread when so many said it was a bad idea to wait with the heals until the tank needs it. Thankfully the last few posters came to the rescue.
Once again, it can never be bad to give the other healers more time. Every time you wait with your heal, other healers' debuff will go away. If you heal all the time on the other hand you won't have any extra healers available when the tank actually needs it.
The only thing you need to look out for is when a doom is about to hit, since the tank will take more damage then.
The Vendetta bossmod is very helpfull here, as it allows to easily setup a healing rotation that everyone can see and react to. We use 12 healers in the rotation, with another 2 as backup, and it is very forgiving even with people disconnecting. Also, we try to not have consecutive druids in the healing order.
2 full T2 priests worked best for us. you can use 3 but then one can be wasted. imo 13 healers is about perfect for this, with that amount you'd have T2priest - x - x - x - T2 priest - x - x - x - T2 priest - x - x - x - x . with just 3 other healers between two full T2 priests, it's possible that the HOT did not ran out. to make sure you don't lose a hot (lower one won't replace a higher one), the first priest in that chain needs to have the lowest hot, 2nd bit higher and 3rd the highest cause with 4 other healers behind him, it should always reset. optimal would be to have the other priests in 4 T3.
i dunno what this 'dps gear otherwise healers can't pull their weight' comment is about. we use 13 healers and no world buffs and i am sure we'd run into serious trouble if we'd have all healers in pewpew gear. switching weapons is one thing, but spelldmg gear is so much inferior, wouldn't wanna use that. and even in full T2 i do between 30 and 40k dmg while bandaging other people.
for mt healing we don't use the addon cause when we started loatheb there was only one bw thingy avaible and that one sucked. we just use a macro like:
/healerchannel myname healed - next: nextguy
/w nextguy your turn !
/w 2ndnextguy get ready !
works quite well for us at least. we still cancel heals on 80-90% if you have spore buff active (flask but no world buffs on tank). especially for horde that should be np cause every 2nd healer should have NS to make up for a potential spike. also if you get the 'get ready' msg and the tank is on 50% or less, you start casting right away and let it run through if the guy in front of you does not crit.
60/x healers = y. Heal every y seconds, period. Leave one healer out of the rotation. Make a mod to announce the first round of the rotation, and have healers heal every time their debuff wears off after that, no matter what.
Fact is Loatheb just doesn't hit that hard against a consumable laden tank. Assume you have the bare minimum of 13 healers. 12 healers in the rotation means one heal every 5 seconds. 3-4k healed non crit every 5 seconds. The ONLY time Loatheb will consistently outdamage this such that your healing will fall behind is on doom ticks where the tank is not protected by a shadow protection potion. This is easily overcome by the healer out of rotation, last stand, LGG, etc.
If you have more healers this strat just becomes easier and easier as the time between heals goes down.
Using this strat we have never, ever had the tank die unless someone missed their heal. A missed heal in this strat can be ugly. But a missed heal in any strat is pretty ugly. This strat gives healers the highest degree of freedom in terms of what they need to think about. They don't have to watch for a whisper, or the healers before them, they don't need to sit there waiting for the MT to take the right amount of damage, they just heal every 60 seconds, as soon as their debuff wears off. After that they are free to worry about their dps, their own consumable use, etc.
Healing on this fight is a non issue with this strat, and you can start worrying about your dps getting the spores and using consumables in the right order to stay alive.
Edit: This may have been referenced earlier in the thread as a 'static' rotation. If so apologies for covering the same strat twice. But yeah this really is the easiest way all around. Most efficient? Least healers possible? Probably not. Who gives a damn, as long as the tank is alive.
Ok, what happens when one of your healers simply disconnects in a static rotation? What happens if, god forbid, two healers disconnect? It's a guaranteed wipe, with all the buffs gone out the window. A dynamic rotation is more flexible, especially when you have backups. Not to mention it's oriented around the judgement and abilities of your healers, so even a missed heal can be corrected in time by the next guy in line.
Agreed... we toyed around with the idea of a static rotation here, but after having random healers (and not even the same ones between attempts sometimes!) disconnect, we just got ahold of SnagaLoatheb and worked from there.
12/05/06, 1:38 PM
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