A question for people interested in these kinds of things:
Was Patchwerk hitting that level 67 tank in tier 3 for 14k because of some 'boss' scaling based on level, or was he hitting him for 14k just because thats how hard Patchwerk was hitting people in that gear without consumables before the hotfix?
I'm going to lead towards the latter. I'm willing to bet that the only change made was a change to how 'yellow' physical attacks were calculated based on level. This would explain Patchwerk hitting people much harder all of a sudden, and it would also explain reports of Rogues SSing and BSing for slightly reduced damage post patch. This is more reasonable than the whole mystery level situation.
I remember from being in my mid 30s, doing those STV quests 2 weeks after the original retail release, that my Sinister Strikes always did reasonably full damage against mobs 6-7 levels above me, allowing me and another rogue to complete those Nessingwary quests many, many levels before we shoudl have. I'm willing to bet that now, in 2.0.1 or 2.0.2, that wouldn't be the same case, that the yellow attacks would have their damage more significantly reduced.
Maybe I'm completely wrong here, there does seem to be some oddity with crushing blows and such that doesn't fit my conclusion here, but is the whole 'NAXX WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE AT LEVEL 70' a bit blown out of proportion if it was based solely on the pre-hotfix Patchwerk?
I'd have to assume so. Onyxia is still a "skull" boss in TBC, right? Surely a group of 5-10 or so could go play with her at some point on the beta server and confirm/deny the speculation about some general phenomenon covering all raid bosses.
Yes, it's just speculation based on that one incident somebody had with Patchwerk.
It's entirely possible that the boss scaling is true, based on some reports of the behavior of Ironaya. If it is, I imagine it will be hotfixed not long after people actually run into it on live. But Patchwerk could have hit those people as hard as he did for any number of reasons. Lots of combat mechanics were being changed.
But I wouldn't worry about the "Naxx will be impossible at 70" people. Tell me, what do they know which is more than what we know?
Ironaya doesn't have the skull icon anymore, not too sure if thats a new change or not. She's just a level 40 elite now, and she doesn't really do anything special. (I went through her a good 5-6 times on sunday in the process of plvling my priest)
UNfortunately no - Quineloe from the EU realms has a better picture (it's in his sig on the FoH forums) but basically - priests in ZG were hitting him at level 70 for more than they were at level 60, and he was still taking crushing blows from them .
Razorgore was also tested, and he was also hitting for a lot harder on higher level tanks.
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
Like I said, I wouldn't doubt a static % of crushing blows could be applied, but the extra normal damage they were taking could be from a number of factors, mainly that people are just taking more damage in general post patch.
I can confirm from first-hand experience that on Beta at L70, melee hits against Molten Core bosses were glancing at a rate consistent with L73s. This was the case on Luci, Mag, Geh and Garr.
Boss flags affect glancing, crushing, and spell resist rates. Bosses will still be treated as 3 levels higher than your character for these purposes; it does not raise their damage modifier. However, by virtue of new spells, higher attack power and better weapons, you'll still be able to curb stomp them with ease.
The 14k Patchwerk hits were reported by someone without raid buffs. They probably weren't even in defensive stance, if it was even a warrior in the first place. That Lon guy crying about the sky falling on the beta boards tried to test this on Razorgore and didn't even have demoralizing shout on the mob. "OMG HE'S HITTING HARDER!" Well no shit, genius. You didn't debuff him and you weren't raid buffed.
Even so, the fact that the bosses are flagged as such seems to contrast with statements the CM team made much earlier in the xpack development, when it was noted that at lvl 70 there would be teams of raiders revisiting old content just to see how much smaller of a group it could be done with. Doesn't seem like that's the case if the boss is going to hit just as hard, and have the same resist/glance rates.
Er, sure it does. I think they should change those things because I'm all for a palpable sense of progression and being able to utterly destroy Onyxia at level 70 a full 2+ years after first fighting her, and glancing blows and spell resists diminish that even if they don't really have much of an impact.
Even if every boss does, say, 10% more damage to a tank than they do currently, that is nothing. Do you have any idea how much health a raid-buffed tank will have at level 70? How much higher DPS would be across the board? If the only mechanics in play are glancing, crushing, and resists, then current content will be pretty trivial.
Boss flags affect glancing, crushing, and spell resist rates. Bosses will still be treated as 3 levels higher than your character for these purposes; it does not raise their damage modifier. However, by virtue of new spells, higher attack power and better weapons, you'll still be able to curb stomp them with ease.
The 14k Patchwerk hits were reported by someone without raid buffs. They probably weren't even in defensive stance, if it was even a warrior in the first place. That Lon guy crying about the sky falling on the beta boards tried to test this on Razorgore and didn't even have demoralizing shout on the mob. "OMG HE'S HITTING HARDER!" Well no shit, genius. You didn't debuff him and you weren't raid buffed.
Don't forget that mob level also determines effectiveness of armor. Patchwerk is balanced against something like 70% mitigation. And for level 70 warriors against 73 level mob this is probably unrealistic without top tanking epics.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
So if something is flagged as a boss, even if it's level 5, it will crushing blow you 15% of the time? If this is intentended it strikes me as a little odd. What's the point?
Don't forget that mob level also determines effectiveness of armor. Patchwerk is balanced against something like 70% mitigation. And for level 70 warriors against 73 level mob this is probably unrealistic without top tanking epics.
And I'm saying this isn't true. This is specifically what I think was speculation based on the bugged Patchwerk, and is wrong.
I always thought they made this tweak/game mechanics design for the expansion so that people cant come back and solo some of this stuff (or 2-5 man it). Sounds rediculous to solo any of these raid encounters now, but how many people would have said you could solo (albit with great difficulty) scholo, strat, LBRS, DM North etc etc that have all been done recently a year ago? What an amazing resorce of gold would it be to grind some of these first bosses in zg/aq20/mc with just a few people at level 70 wearing tier 10 or whatever.
Masking the mobs as lvl 73 would really help prevent that, if nothing else because you couldnt sneak by them with the reduced aggro range that occures when you get way higher than the mobs level.
What Digo has suggested is that Patchwerk and other current raid bosses are level 63 mobs. However, the "boss" flag has special modifiers associated with it (crushing rate, glancing rate, spell resist rate), and those persist regardless of relative level. This doesn't mean they're level 73 now. Of course they aren't level 73, or how would anyone be fighting them in the current 2.0 build?
Also note that some mobs like Patchwerk and Loatheb cannot land crushing blows. Stuff like crushing/glancing can be hardcoded, independent of level.
Even if every boss does, say, 10% more damage to a tank than they do currently, that is nothing. Do you have any idea how much health a raid-buffed tank will have at level 70? How much higher DPS would be across the board? If the only mechanics in play are glancing, crushing, and resists, then current content will be pretty trivial.
I didn't mention that the testing I was doing in MC at level 70 was with a raid of only ~15 people and we easily cleared through Garr, so Gurg's point is very valid, at least for the lower tier raid instances.
I've read reports of faction bosses (e.g Thrall) displaying behaviour consistent with a lvl 73 boss. If that is true then it is obviously the case that boss leveled mobs can have a different "real level", at least with respect to some game mechanics. It obviously doesn't rule out the possibility that bosses will scale once the expansion is released, but it would be strange if you had to use a well equipped lvl60 tank against Patchwerk because your lvl 70 alt was getting slaughtered (provided that the lvl 70 had gear with better stats than the lvl 60 anyway).
Don't mix faction nameds into this. High Overlord Saurfang just inside the gates of Orgrimmar is a level 72 NPC right now, fully visible. I would expect that Thrall and such are actual 73s, not just 63s with a skull designation.
Let's focus on current 20-man and 40-man bosses that have a skull raidboss designation.
Even if every boss does, say, 10% more damage to a tank than they do currently, that is nothing. Do you have any idea how much health a raid-buffed tank will have at level 70? How much higher DPS would be across the board? If the only mechanics in play are glancing, crushing, and resists, then current content will be pretty trivial.
I didn't mention that the testing I was doing in MC at level 70 was with a raid of only ~15 people and we easily cleared through Garr, so Gurg's point is very valid, at least for the lower tier raid instances.
Except you can probably 10 man the entire zone now, so I'm not sure what that says.
I realize this is somewhat anecdotal and all, but I was on one of the infamous level 67 raids that ventured into Naxx, and the specific example that got us to call it was him oneshotting (just a straight up single headshot boom) a feral iwth 17k HP- and I think 15k AC. I don't have the numbers onhand, and the feral in question could have been fibbing about numbers in the first place, but that's what personally convinced me there was some sort of scaling mechanic in place (even at level 70 mitigation I just don't see those numbers as possible). Of course, the patchwerk bug might not have been nearly as related to varied mitigation as we'd assumed, I just want to chime in that the person claiming those numbers wasn't exactly pulling a chicken little.
Honestly didn't really make a lot of sense to me that they -were- scaling, and for all I know it might have just been a transitive bug where HS was completely ignoring bearform AC (this is what we assumed it was at the time).
Originally Posted by bartolimu
It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
Even if every boss does, say, 10% more damage to a tank than they do currently, that is nothing. Do you have any idea how much health a raid-buffed tank will have at level 70? How much higher DPS would be across the board? If the only mechanics in play are glancing, crushing, and resists, then current content will be pretty trivial.
I didn't mention that the testing I was doing in MC at level 70 was with a raid of only ~15 people and we easily cleared through Garr, so Gurg's point is very valid, at least for the lower tier raid instances.
Except you can probably 10 man the entire zone now, so I'm not sure what that says.
The nature of MC boss encounters will acctually need more people than maybe even BWL (way off in the future when everyone has tier 6). Sulpheron has 4 adds, with Domo and Garr having 8. That really forces raid stacking or you just need more warm bodies to stand there and press the sheep/taunt/banish button.
I'm pretty sure the boss flag was / is being kept at 3 levels higher for beta so people can't go play in Naxx, when they want us testing Outlands. Tigole has stated numerous times that the old world dungeons will not change in anyway and 15 level 70's would have no trouble killing Rag. I expect once TBC hits shelves we'll see the flag removed and an appropriate boss level of 63 to 64 for MC BWL AQ40 and Naxx.
"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do ain't pretty"
The nature of MC boss encounters will acctually need more people than maybe even BWL (way off in the future when everyone has tier 6). Sulpheron has 4 adds, with Domo and Garr having 8. That really forces raid stacking or you just need more warm bodies to stand there and press the sheep/taunt/banish button.
Believe it or not, it is possible to have 1 person tanking multiple mobs.
12/12/06, 4:56 PM
Similar Threads
