BTW if can get a couple more druids we prolly can stealth past the warders now with our level difference.
Aren't they agro you on Ony engage, if you left them alive in tunnel somehow ?
Heh, well found out they have unusually large aggro radius was aggroing them from like 15 yds away about normal aggro radius I would say for a 60. Was soloing one fine till it decided to pierce armor (75% armor reduction) so have to try some kiting tricks for soloing at the moment.
I should be able to get down there solo pretty easy, will post some screens later today.
Edit- Oh I also don't know why I didn't think of this earlier but you would think if a boss is treated as a +3 lvl monster for its outgoing damage mitigation, wouldn't it be counted the same for incoming damage mitigation? Someone has got to have a combat log or a screen shot of them whacking an old boss and be able to compare that to their expected white damage.
UNfortunately no - Quineloe from the EU realms has a better picture (it's in his sig on the FoH forums) but basically - priests in ZG were hitting him at level 70 for more than they were at level 60, and he was still taking crushing blows from them .
Razorgore was also tested, and he was also hitting for a lot harder on higher level tanks.
It's not in my sig, is it?
Originally Posted by Praetorian
Can someone who has level 70 friends (or thereabouts) on beta take a 5-10 man group and go play with Onyxia to settle this conclusively? Please, no more speculation. Some guy's account from beta a month ago isn't evidence. Half the posts in this thread are assuming either the truth or falsity of the proposition that the thread aims to investigate.
I will ride... ride... ride... ride.... thunder... horse...
Razorgore doesn't seem to be hitting you any harder at 70... The only thing is that hes still crushing blowing you, but you're not taking 'more' damage, you're not taking less but you're not taking more.
Just from that screenshot it's pretty clear that for regular melee AC purposes preTBC bosses are considered 63
Special Abilities must take the +3 into account, thus the trouble with HS, try testing a few cleaving mobs (or other strike based attacks) on boss mobs to make sure it's the issue with HS
A problem with leaving in the glancing/crushing on old bosses is that it creates gaps between trash difficulty and boss difficulty. The only real thing it does is to preserve the "these are mobs you shouldn't be fighting alone" mentality. I think they should take it out to make clearing the legacy dungeons out more smooth and enjoyable... And they must fix the issue with abilities like HS.
I always thought they made this tweak/game mechanics design for the expansion so that people cant come back and solo some of this stuff (or 2-5 man it). Sounds rediculous to solo any of these raid encounters now, but how many people would have said you could solo (albit with great difficulty) scholo, strat, LBRS, DM North etc etc that have all been done recently a year ago? What an amazing resorce of gold would it be to grind some of these first bosses in zg/aq20/mc with just a few people at level 70 wearing tier 10 or whatever.
Masking the mobs as lvl 73 would really help prevent that, if nothing else because you couldnt sneak by them with the reduced aggro range that occures when you get way higher than the mobs level.
I just attempted the ZG snake boss 5 man 2 days ago. We got him to 40%, after figuring out the finer points of his mechanics that most would never notice. Brought in a 6th and got him to 23% but I DC'd at 50%. He is probably 4-mannable right now with T3 level gear and buffs (we were not potted or flasked or anything). I'm sure if my internet connection didn't go poof we would have had him with 6 (Tier 2 + some AQ, druid druid priest warlock warlock mage) Most of the trash is 3 or 4 mannable in that place. Oh, and mana burn / drain is required as well as excellent positioning and CC.
Why were we there? money grinding, actually. After finding out with 3 how half of the trash can be cleared, we got a 4th and took out zerkers, then a fifth and went for the snake boss.
Honestly, I'm not sure in the expansion at 70 farming these places will be very profitable anyway.
Boss flags affect glancing, crushing, and spell resist rates. Bosses will still be treated as 3 levels higher than your character for these purposes; it does not raise their damage modifier. However, by virtue of new spells, higher attack power and better weapons, you'll still be able to curb stomp them with ease.
The 14k Patchwerk hits were reported by someone without raid buffs. They probably weren't even in defensive stance, if it was even a warrior in the first place. That Lon guy crying about the sky falling on the beta boards tried to test this on Razorgore and didn't even have demoralizing shout on the mob. "OMG HE'S HITTING HARDER!" Well no shit, genius. You didn't debuff him and you weren't raid buffed.
Don't forget that mob level also determines effectiveness of armor. Patchwerk is balanced against something like 70% mitigation. And for level 70 warriors against 73 level mob this is probably unrealistic without top tanking epics.
Pretty much all the tooltips state that they describe same-level mechanics. 70% mitigation from armor on a level 60 tank is only 70% mitigation against a level 60 mob. The same armor value providing say (because I don't feel like doing the math) 50% on the character sheet of a level 65 character, is still providing 70% mitigation (or possibly better) against a level 60 mob. You don't take more damage from weaker mobs when you level up. That would just be stupid. I really wish they'd implement something like Diablo 2 eventually got where the character sheet could show the data vs. the mob you had targeted. Heck aren't there mods that can do that? I haven't looked.
Boss flags affect glancing, crushing, and spell resist rates. Bosses will still be treated as 3 levels higher than your character for these purposes; it does not raise their damage modifier. However, by virtue of new spells, higher attack power and better weapons, you'll still be able to curb stomp them with ease.
The 14k Patchwerk hits were reported by someone without raid buffs. They probably weren't even in defensive stance, if it was even a warrior in the first place. That Lon guy crying about the sky falling on the beta boards tried to test this on Razorgore and didn't even have demoralizing shout on the mob. "OMG HE'S HITTING HARDER!" Well no shit, genius. You didn't debuff him and you weren't raid buffed.
Don't forget that mob level also determines effectiveness of armor. Patchwerk is balanced against something like 70% mitigation. And for level 70 warriors against 73 level mob this is probably unrealistic without top tanking epics.
Pretty much all the tooltips state that they describe same-level mechanics. 70% mitigation from armor on a level 60 tank is only 70% mitigation against a level 60 mob. The same armor value providing say (because I don't feel like doing the math) 50% on the character sheet of a level 65 character, is still providing 70% mitigation (or possibly better) against a level 60 mob. You don't take more damage from weaker mobs when you level up. That would just be stupid. I really wish they'd implement something like Diablo 2 eventually got where the character sheet could show the data vs. the mob you had targeted. Heck aren't there mods that can do that? I haven't looked.
There also was a post on the Druid forums before the forum switch about Druid Tanking, and specifically the benefits of Armor mitigation. Wearing something like 2500 armor they let a level 15 mob beat on them, and then wearing 0 armor, used both values to figure out the mobs base damage. Dispite being level 60, wearing 2500 armor provided ~60% DR, not the 31% listed in the tooltip. Going up in level doesn't make mobs hit you harder.
I always thought they made this tweak/game mechanics design for the expansion so that people cant come back and solo some of this stuff (or 2-5 man it). Sounds rediculous to solo any of these raid encounters now, but how many people would have said you could solo (albit with great difficulty) scholo, strat, LBRS, DM North etc etc that have all been done recently a year ago? What an amazing resorce of gold would it be to grind some of these first bosses in zg/aq20/mc with just a few people at level 70 wearing tier 10 or whatever.
Masking the mobs as lvl 73 would really help prevent that, if nothing else because you couldnt sneak by them with the reduced aggro range that occures when you get way higher than the mobs level.
I just attempted the ZG snake boss 5 man 2 days ago. We got him to 40%, after figuring out the finer points of his mechanics that most would never notice. Brought in a 6th and got him to 23% but I DC'd at 50%. He is probably 4-mannable right now with T3 level gear and buffs (we were not potted or flasked or anything). I'm sure if my internet connection didn't go poof we would have had him with 6 (Tier 2 + some AQ, druid druid priest warlock warlock mage) Most of the trash is 3 or 4 mannable in that place. Oh, and mana burn / drain is required as well as excellent positioning and CC.
Why were we there? money grinding, actually. After finding out with 3 how half of the trash can be cleared, we got a 4th and took out zerkers, then a fifth and went for the snake boss.
Honestly, I'm not sure in the expansion at 70 farming these places will be very profitable anyway.
For what it's worth, pretty much all the trash along the main road in ZG is 5-mannable in lower BWL-level gear (no chromag kills) at level 60, assuming you use standard 5 man practices of CC/focus fire/etc., rather than the aoe zerg most guilds who outgear the zone do now. Without any consumable buffs, either. We did this for a few weeks in my old Horde guild when some of us really wanted to finish up exalted.
Don't forget that mob level also determines effectiveness of armor. Patchwerk is balanced against something like 70% mitigation. And for level 70 warriors against 73 level mob this is probably unrealistic without top tanking epics.
Exactly. The problem being that those 70% mitigation are achieved by having advanced by 2-3 tiers of epic armor compared to "standard armor". However, at 70, you no longer have that advance: T3 is equivalent to standard armor, armorwise.
And the loss of armor is demultiplied by the initial reduction. When you lose 15% mitigation, you don't get hit for 15% more. You get hit for far more. You go from getting 25-30% of 22000-29000 (the standard Hateful Strike) to getting 40-45% of 22000-29000. Over 50% more damage.
No, skulls have beeen remove from all 5man instance bosses some time ago.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
t warlock warlock mage) Most of the trash is 3 or 4 mannable in that place. Oh, and mana burn / drain is required as well as excellent positioning and CC.
Why were we there? money grinding, actually. After finding out with 3 how half of the trash can be cleared, we got a 4th and took out zerkers, then a fifth and went for the snake boss.
Honestly, I'm not sure in the expansion at 70 farming these places will be very profitable anyway.
Hardly, you get a lot of money from finishing quests at level 70 due to xp turned gold, and you will have MANY quests left to at level 70, basically because there will be three fully-fleshed out areas for the last few levels compared to only one area for the late 50s.
Don't forget that mob level also determines effectiveness of armor. Patchwerk is balanced against something like 70% mitigation. And for level 70 warriors against 73 level mob this is probably unrealistic without top tanking epics.
Exactly. The problem being that those 70% mitigation are achieved by having advanced by 2-3 tiers of epic armor compared to "standard armor". However, at 70, you no longer have that advance: T3 is equivalent to standard armor, armorwise.
And the loss of armor is demultiplied by the initial reduction. When you lose 15% mitigation, you don't get hit for 15% more. You get hit for far more. You go from getting 25-30% of 22000-29000 (the standard Hateful Strike) to getting 40-45% of 22000-29000. Over 50% more damage.
This was just covered by Seria and myself. 11k armor at 60 vs 63 is going to be just as effective as 11k armor at 70 vs 63.
Except that I didn't test level 63, I tested bosses =)
Venoxis crushed there for over 1600 damage, that's 1075 hit. In WoW, he barely puts out more than 500 in priest form
But this is conflicting with razorgore hitting for roughly the same amount of damage on 60 and 70.
The whole situation can hardly be assessed at this point.
Maybe BWL bosses do already have a "real" level, as that zone is older than Zul'Gurub or Naxxramas and Blizzard decided one day in the past to change that and haven't done so yet on the newer instances.
Anyway, some math on your Razorgore test for my own sake ...
Assuming you go off of Tooltip %DR:
@70 - 52.37% DR
Min Hit: 902 / (1-.5237) = 1893.7
Max Hit: 1051 / (1-.5237) = 2206.6
Min Crush: 1534 / (1-.5237) = 3220.7 / 1.5 = 2147.1
Max Crush: 1658 / (1-.5237) = 3481 / 1.5 = 2320.1
That gives us a range of 1893-2321 damage on his attacks.
@60 - 65.29% DR
Min Hit: 992 / (1-.6529) = 2858
Max Hit: 1094 / (1-.6529) = 3151.8
Min Crush: 1355 / (1-.6529) = 3903.8 / 1.5 = 2602.5
Max Crush: 1689 / (1-.6529) = 4866 / 1.5 = 3244
Giving a range of 2602-3244 damage on his attacks.
Assuming tooltip is vs your level, and you recalculate DR vs yourlevel + 3: armor/(armor+85*(level + 4.5*(level-59))+400)
@70 - 49.26%
Min Hit - 902 / (1-.4926) = 1777.7 min
Max Crush - 1658 / (1-.4926) = 3267.6 / 1.5 = 2178.4 max
@60 - 60.3%
Min Crush: 1355 / (1-.603) = 3413.1 / 1.5 = 2275.4 min
Max Crush: 1689 / (1-.603) = 4254.4 / 1.5 = 2836.3 max
Assuming tooltip is vs your level, and you recalculate DR vs 63: armor/(armor+85*(level + 4.5*(level-59))+400)
@70 - 61.44%
Min Hit - 902 / (1-.6144) = 2339.2 min
Max Crush - 1658 / (1-.6144) = 4299.8 / 1.5 = 2866.5 max
@60 - 60.3%
Min Crush: 1355 / (1-.603) = 3413.1 / 1.5 = 2275.4 min
Max Crush: 1689 / (1-.603) = 4254.4 / 1.5 = 2836.3 max
Conclusion: Unless Razorgore's base damage decreases as level increases to the extent that his damage range doesn't even overlap vs 60 and vs 70, then Razorgore counts as 63 (or is at least static level) and Boss Status only maintains Glancing/Crushing/Resist rates.
Note the almost complete lack of dodges, misses and parries on his auto attack, yet you mitigated every special at level 70. Luck? Definitely something strange going on.
12/13/06, 1:14 PM
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