Damage coefficients - Page 2

Vidocq · 12/14/06, 11:33 AM

I'm getting 143% bonus on Arcane Missiles, which fits perfectly with 5/3.5.

Tarnop · 12/14/06, 12:05 PM

Meaning that Mind Flay should be (3/3.5) * 0.95 = 81%

This was the value they set the scaling to when they first started messing about with it. They really just need to fix the base damage on this spell so that it can scale properly with gear without provoking nerf cries.

Papajan · 12/14/06, 1:05 PM

I'd say that Blizzard probably starts off with the normal derivations we see and then tunes some coefficients a little. Like in the case of Ice Lance, they tuned it to get the desired coefficient in normal usage only (vs. frozen targets), so it has a coefficient like (1/3) * (1.5/3.5).

In any case, this thread is currently more about "is" than "should be" and I hope it won't degrade to mindless nerf/buff bickering. It's useful to understand why things don't turn out the way you expect though.

Jaete · 12/14/06, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Elerion

They appear to be moving away from case-by-case and towards an absolute system with 2.0 though. Mind Flay, which has always been lower than any system would dictate, now fits within the above. (3/5*0.95 = 57%)

Except arcane missiles is a channeled spell, yet it doesn't get 5/5 but 5/3.5, so it doesn't fit within the above. :)

I've tested a few of the simpler mage spells now and haven't encountered any unrecognizeable weirdness; will continue testing later.

Risingstar · 12/14/06, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Vidocq

I'm getting 143% bonus on Arcane Missiles, which fits perfectly with 5/3.5.

Some how I'm sure that AM with no talent is 100% pre 2.0 anyways, not too sure about the expansion though, but they don't look any different to me pre-patch and post-patch.

Elerion · 12/14/06, 3:01 PM

With people reporting anything from 100% to 143% coefficient on arcane missiles without logs, how about someone go test it and provide some numbers? Since it's a static damage amount, testing should be exceedingly easy, assuming you're not specced for it.

Just cast it once with no +damage gear. Then cast it once with a nice round number of +damage gear. Unless you have points in the highest tiers of arcane, this should give a pretty clear cut answer.

EDIT: magic missiles it is not

chase · 12/14/06, 4:49 PM

Can post the combat log upon request.

With 0 damage each missle ticks for 237
With 440 damage each missle ticks for 367

237+(440*X)=367
X=.295454 or 29.5% +dmg per missile
X*5=1.47727 or 147.72%

I have playing with fire and that increases all spell damage by 3%
So 144.72%

Just to make sure playing with fire is the culprit:
0 damage each missle should tick for 230 as the spell book says.
97% of 237 should be 230
237*.97=229.89
In the rounding error range

Again for the missle tick with 440 +dmg gear.
367*.97=355.99

Lets call it 230 and 356

230+(440*X)=356
x=.28636 or 28.63% per missile
x*5=1.4318 or 143.18% per volley

So I would hazzard to say 143% is the damage coefficient for AM.

What I would like to see is the coefficient for dragon's breath through some testing. I would assume it is 1.5/3.5 * 1/3 the standard instant cast AoE coefficient. However, with blizzard seeming to "fine tune" more spells on individual basis it would be interesting to check.

Kavan · 12/14/06, 5:36 PM

1/3 is no longer the standard for AoE. I haven't run any controlled tests on live yet, but in beta the coefficient for Arcane Explosion is 1.5/3.5*0.5.

Papajan · 12/14/06, 5:47 PM

Beta has different rules for AoE. The coefficient is much higher against a single target and supposedly degrades. Whether the degrading is the same mechanic as the supposed hard damage cap, I can't say.

chase · 12/14/06, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kavan

1/3 is no longer the standard for AoE. I haven't run any controlled tests on live yet, but in beta the coefficient for Arcane Explosion is 1.5/3.5*0.5.

I guess I could do some testing on live for such a thing, but testing spells with a variance in damage (unlike AM) is a bit more of a pain.

I'll parse my combat log tonight and see what happens with arcane explosion on "aoe mobs". Figure the "aoe mobs" are a good canidate because they don't receive any debuffs.

Originally Posted by Jaete

Originally Posted by Elerion

They appear to be moving away from case-by-case and towards an absolute system with 2.0 though. Mind Flay, which has always been lower than any system would dictate, now fits within the above. (3/5*0.95 = 57%)

Except arcane missiles is a channeled spell, yet it doesn't get 5/5 but 5/3.5, so it doesn't fit within the above. :)

I've tested a few of the simpler mage spells now and haven't encountered any unrecognizeable weirdness; will continue testing later.

Arcane missiles is the exception to the rule channeled spell. It is the only channeled player spell that can crit. That is why I think it gets the divide by 3.5 instead of the standard divide by 5 for channeled spells.

Vidocq · 12/14/06, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by chase

Arcane missiles is the exception to the rule channeled spell. It is the only channeled player spell that can crit. That is why I think it gets the divide by 3.5 instead of the standard divide by 5 for channeled spells.

Blizzard also gets divided by 3.5. I'd check my warlock too, but he's too low level to have any damage gear yet. :P

Fiola · 12/14/06, 9:09 PM

Originally Posted by chase

Arcane missiles is the exception to the rule channeled spell. It is the only channeled player spell that can crit. That is why I think it gets the divide by 3.5 instead of the standard divide by 5 for channeled spells.

Can't starshards crit? = p

I'd guess it'd have the per 3.5 sec spread of +dmg as well?

Althor · 12/14/06, 9:17 PM

Starshards cannot crit.

• Chicken · 12/15/06, 3:39 AM

Originally Posted by Papajan

Beta has different rules for AoE. The coefficient is much higher against a single target and supposedly degrades. Whether the degrading is the same mechanic as the supposed hard damage cap, I can't say.

There's so much confusion around that, so I'll just put the exact quote on Kalgan on the subject here:

Originally Posted by Kalgan

Originally Posted by Pusharvi

6) Early reports from beta are saying that AoE spells are doing less damage to large quantities of enemies. The perceived reason for the lower damage is an overall damage cap that the spell is capable of doing. Since this is counter to the primary purpose of AoE, AoEs are already the worst scaling and least mana efficient spells in the game, and AoE is the Mage's main strength, is this an intentional and permanent change? Or is it a side-effect of beta tweaking that will eventually work itself out? What is the intended role of AoE given this new paradigm?

6. First, it's important to note that we've recently increased the spell damage coefficients on the affected AE spells (although this might not be in the version on the test realms yet). So, this change explicitly gave us the ability to improve those coefficients for the "normal" AE case, yet protect the spells against infinitely scaling against more and more opponents. Our desire is to tune the AE spells so that the damage doesn't cap out until you exceed about 10 targets, as our AE encounters are actually designed around an assumption of players AE'ing around 10 mobs. Any more than that, we consider unintended and/or exploitive. So, we're probably going to be bumping up the damage caps a bit to account for the now stronger effects of +damage gear and our desire for players to be able to AE around 10 targets without really feeling the effect of the damage caps.

http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/47160568.htm

In summary: The actual change is that there's a static damage cap on each AoE spells. If it affects so many targets that the cap is exceeded the damage cap will be spread around equally on the affected targets.

(Note: The numbers in this example are not real numbers)

Let's say the damage cap on Arcane Explosion would be 7500, and your Arcane Explosion hits for 500. In this case anywhere up to 15 targets would work as expected, 16 targets would each get 468 damage, 17 targets 441 damage, etc.

That is assuming the system hasn't changed since that time.

Kruthal · 12/15/06, 5:18 AM

Originally Posted by Vidocq

Originally Posted by chase

Arcane missiles is the exception to the rule channeled spell. It is the only channeled player spell that can crit. That is why I think it gets the divide by 3.5 instead of the standard divide by 5 for channeled spells.

Blizzard also gets divided by 3.5. I'd check my warlock too, but he's too low level to have any damage gear yet. :P

No need to check your warlock, the warlock numbers have already been confirmed:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...pageNo=1&sid=1

FWIW, I've tested some of these as well, and it does check out. Thought they didn't till I remembered that the base values shown on your hotbars now add in things like Shadow Mastery *cough*. None of this is new of course, but still, since it was brought up I thought I'd link it again. (And damn that extra 50% penalty on Drain Soul :P)