I have no idea what they did to the honor points but all in my WSG ( later expanded to AB ) raid yesterday had this happen: As we continued to win we got more kills and the estimated honor went up, but after some time and the expected honor was higher then 6k (varied from player to player) it was all of a sudden set to ~17 estimated and began to rise from that. That wasn't the only odd thing happening, I went to bed with 688 kills for the day, when I woke up today I had about 200 less kills. I don't have any screenshots to back it up, but it was the entire team of 15 players this happened to, I'm going to take some screenshots today or tomorrow whenever I get to pvp again.
Yes I've had the same thing happen with the estimated totals, it just seems to forget what it was estimating and start over from a much later point but it doesn't change what you actually earn. I'm going to guess the loss of kills was actually it pushing your kills to the next day, I've had it give me 600 kills on one day and when the actual honor kicks in I'm only getting 400 and 200 of those kills get pushed on to the next day (or perhaps you're observing the reverse) but again it doesn't change the end result from being about right.
All well and good to say that, but when I earn 12,000 honor for 5 hours pvp before nerf and then earn 5,000 honor for 6-7 hours pvp I tend to think there is something more going on.
IMO, I thought the CM mistook "reduced TO 30%" for "reduced BY 30%"...
There was an easy way to prove that the nerf was being given twice, and someone did it and posted the SS.
He went into an AV, killed one legionnaire, then zoned out and didn't pvp the rest of the day. Before the nerf, it was 20 honor per kill, after the 30% nerf, it was 14.
The next day he logs in and his calculated honor was 10. The nerf was applied twice, once at the point of gaining, and again after the calculation.
I thought that was pretty telling, and there's absolutely no way that's a display error or just diminishing returns.
Edit: It's even seen in that above link up there.
I'd find it very hard to believe that everyone is just dancing around it because they feel they should get more. My honor screen has been jumping around all week and that's pretty insane to me.
I've gotten pretty much exactly the honor I expected to every day. Once you understand the display errors (looping at around 6500) and the oddities with carry over during calculation time, it all makes sense. People look at the honor they got during AB holiday weekend with 4 minute queues and compare it to what they get over the course of the non-holiday weekend with 6 minute queues and read one unsubstantiated claim on the forums and go nuts.
It's all display errors and boys crying wolf to rile up the forum-goers.
There was an easy way to prove that the nerf was being given twice, and someone did it and posted the SS.
He went into an AV, killed one legionnaire, then zoned out and didn't pvp the rest of the day. Before the nerf, it was 20 honor per kill, after the 30% nerf, it was 14.
The next day he logs in and his calculated honor was 10. The nerf was applied twice, once at the point of gaining, and again after the calculation.
I thought that was pretty telling, and there's absolutely no way that's a display error or just diminishing returns.
Edit: It's even seen in that above link up there.
I'd find it very hard to believe that everyone is just dancing around it because they feel they should get more. My honor screen has been jumping around all week and that's pretty insane to me.
Drysc explicitly stated that the person who made that original claim provided no evidence and that his test could not be reproduced by multiple QA people looking for exactly that kind of an error, though. Who do we believe? I'm fluent in Malcontentese and don't usually cut Blizzard slack, but I'm gonna have to go with Drysc on this one.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Ive been using honorfu and the number it gives me is very close to what i actually get, infact it normally i seem to get a bit more honor then what it is telling me, however i think that is because i normally am pvping around the time honor is reset so it honorfu doesnt reset for that bg and a loose some honor in its calculations. And i think all honorfu does is add up all the honor and bonus honor you get so i dont think blizard is nerfing honor more then they intended.
I agree with Huzzdi, I also use HonorFu and it's honor estimates (bonus honor + kill honor) is pretty close to what I actually get the next day. There are minor differences, but I think it's from repeated honor kills not being estimated properly. Definitely not anything as big as a 30% difference, not even close.
Why does anyone care about honor estimates? They are just that, ESTIMATES. All I know is that the honor gain was reduced significantly more than 30%.
To be honest, it was really too easy to get items the first week. I'm just sad I didn't get to play more than 1 day during it.
The reduction definitely feels more than 30%. Before, I could easily pull 12k honor a day, or more, by running AV. Now, I'll be lucky to get 6k unless I spend more than 12 hours.
How many other bugs have been absolutely 100% proven but Drysc and others said they could not reproduce? Tons.
Even if they are just ESTIMATES, it's pretty amazing that my estimates are ~600 off every single day.
There would be a pretty easy way to silence the community. Fix the bugs surrounding the honor screen and allow us to see updated honor the whole time, include diminishing returns etc.
Despite the average WoW player's penchant for making a mountain out of a mole hill, there are indeed a good many people I respect who have tested the honor gain a billion times and have come to the conclusion that there is definitely more going on than just display errors and diminishing returns.
Anyways, I'm not going to create a fuss or spout off that Blizzard is lying, but I hate the run around. If they are indeed just display errors, fix them. If diminishing returns aren't showing, include them. It's the easiest and simpliest way to prove that the community is really up in arms over nothing.
Seriously, have you read the posts and threads you're quoting? Diminishing returns can't be calculated on the spot because of server load issues - the same reason the spendable honor calculations aren't done until off peak hours. If you do a lot of AV where you kill the same people repeatedly many times, it's not amazing at all that your estimates are off by a substantial amount - in fact, I'd be amazed if they weren't.
This bug hasn't been 100% proven. In fact, it has come far closer to being 100% disproven. The person who posted the 10 honor from an AV guard thing never posted any screenshots or supporting evidence, nor has anyone since - every followup post claiming honor loss has been "my estimated honor was off by some small amount" or "last week i got way more honor and i'm ignoring the fact that it was a holiday weekend with shorter queues". In fact, many people have done the afk-in-av-until-one-lieutenant-dies test and shown that they got EXACTLY 14 honor the next day, and they HAVE produced supporting screenshots as evidence.
There is no run around here. There's one person trying to get a rise out of an already unstable community in an environment of distrust toward Blizzard representatives and succeeding.
Before, I could easily pull 12k honor a day, or more, by running AV. Now, I'll be lucky to get 6k unless I spend more than 12 hours.
If you're in the same battlegroup as me then there are other reasons for pulling in less honor from AV. At the start, horde and alliance used to all rush. The game was over in 12-15 minutes with 280 bonus honor for the losing team and 300+ for the winning team. However, alliance players woke up to the fact that if they defend and let others go on offence to win the game, they get more honor. So now 3/4 of alliance defend. With less people on offense (like only 1/4 of the alliance instead of the previous 3/4), 'quick' games are now 25-30 minutes long and games go a LOT longer if even 5 horde defend since they can severely slow the few alliance that are on offense.
I didn't say they were 100% proven. I said in the past bugs have and they've come alongside Blizz reps who have said they couldn't reproduce the bugs. But the community knew they were there and eventually got told they were fixed. (I think the hunter run speed bug was one of the ones I remember.)
It doesn't just come from what people tell me; looking at my honor board and I'm either substantially lower or sometimes substantially higher. It's a day by day basis. I'm a priest so I don't stick around for the HKs. I hit the objectives and spend more time defending than advancing, so a very small portion of my everyday honor is from HKs, and therefore would be unaffected by DR.
I've posted my day's worth of pvp and what I got for it, AFTER the calculations. 220 kills, several wins and I netted 850 honor. The next day it was roughly the same thing, maybe a few more wins, but LESS HKs, and I netted 1800 honor.
This is after calculations. I find such discrepencies hard to blame on DR and display errors.
. . .
I've posted my day's worth of pvp and what I got for it, AFTER the calculations. 220 kills, several wins and I netted 850 honor. The next day it was roughly the same thing, maybe a few more wins, but LESS HKs, and I netted 1800 honor.
This is after calculations. I find such discrepencies hard to blame on DR and display errors.
The worth of an HKs can vary greatly, especially for AV. Hang around the frontlines, and you'll get dozens of HKs for 1 honor or less apiece.
Solo defend a tower against random cappers, and you can get ~18 honor per HK. (since you're not splitting the honor with a dozen other people)
BG honor gain from a game of AV can vary as well, depending on how thorough your offense is at cleaning up towers/GYs/LTs. (Though it should be roughly the same)
Also, did you do any PvP around the cutoff time for honor calculations? If you did, some of your previous day's honor would get rolled over to the next day's honor gain.
Like others in this thread, I find that the honor gain is pretty close to what the estimate guesses I should have.
It's all display errors and boys crying wolf to rile up the forum-goers.
I think mostly it's not people crying wolf per se. I think it's primarily people unlike yourself who can't farm 5 nodes in a tier 3 decked guild that are upset. This hit to the honor actually hurt them (the undergeared and the casual) badly. When you only win 30% of the time 30% overall honor reduction hurts quite a bit. Sadly, the nerf to the honor system only really hurt the people it was supposedly designed to benefit. I think the genuine disdain for this change is the fact that both the devs and the cms are of the opinion that the gear really doesn't matter when the expansion comes out, yet they still felt they needed to punish those that it would benefit the most. Most of us here don't really have much of an issue because even the best of the pvp pieces are a side-grade to us... it's easy to call people crybabies.
Punish? You mean being able to get an item within a week instead of a couple days, as opposed to the old method of several months of playing 40 hours a week, is a punishment? I'll gladly take that kind of punishment to fill holes in my DPS gear.
I agree with Glass, I don't need the honor rewards, and I probably still won't need them at 70 depending on how fast Blizz decides to dole out Arena points, but I think the purpose of the 2.0 patch was to give folks something to do. Personally, I am all for making those honor rewards accessible - after the nerf, queue times have doubled and trebled into the 15 minute range for WSG, 20-25 for AB, and 45+ for AV. There's not much left to do till January 16, and the honor nerf nerfed the PvP fun.
Punish? You mean being able to get an item within a week instead of a couple days, as opposed to the old method of several months of playing 40 hours a week, is a punishment? I'll gladly take that kind of punishment to fill holes in my DPS gear.
I think that's exactly the point he was trying to make.
"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice."
- Clark's Law
Please, let's not turn this thread into a debate of "pugs vs premades and who does the 30% honor nerf affect more". We can start another thread for that, or alternatively hit the WoW official forums.
The topic of this thread is about the presumed bug that honor got nerfed twice. Unless some hard evidence is posted to support this, and no, "I did AV and won less games but had more HKs yet I got less honor" is not solid evidence, I'll have to say this is not a real bug. My empirical data from daily PvP suggests the same.
As for the PvP honor tab, it seems Blizzard is using a system with tenth parts of honor points. As we know the display is buggy, it loops at around 6500 honor points and starts over with 1. Now I was curious, and it seems my suspicion was right, it switches over exactly (resp. after) 6553 honor points. And interestingly, 256^2 is 65536, a sort of "special" number in various programs. Divide that by 10, and you receive 6553.6, which is exactly where the system starts over.
A simple overflow in the display mechanics it seems, as the calculation for total honor the next day is correct, but the display for yesterday is also bugged.
12/17/06, 3:43 AM
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