Druids and Aggro Generation - Page 3

Meddler · 12/18/06, 8:35 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Bumped the searches up to include epics from TBC and was able to get to 20k armor, 14k health and 2500 AP. I left the spreadsheet at work but dodge and defense was pretty decent too.

For physical damage dealing bosses I'd personally still be inclined to trade off a chunk of that attack power for extra armour where feasible. 20k may sound high by current standards but given you'll need somewhat over 30k from memory to hit the 75% cap against a level 73 opponent and that druids are very dependent on AC based mitigation there's still a lot of potential mitigation that's being passed up on.

Be interested if you could chuck up a gear list though of what's going in to those figures - a set of high AP gear just in case there are any very agro sensitive but not too mitigation demanding fights has been something I've been thinking about putting together in TBC while gearing up again.

Glaurong · 12/18/06, 8:40 PM

If you can wait till tommorow I can copy/paste from the spreadsheet. If not the items all are up on thott.

Really its stuff like this: http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=13907

That make the high AP builds possible though. Not to mention: http://www.thottbot.com/beta?set=641

That set, fully socketed, is just absolutely insane.

Meddler · 12/18/06, 8:48 PM

Fully expected Earthwarden to be in there yes :).

Putting together tanking sets based off the feral tier sets is a bit difficult given it's far from bear focused gear. Could certainly make for a somewhat viable on the fly swap to tank instead of dps set and as you say pretty good for a high AP set. Problem is though that we don't have any actual bear focused itemisation to compare it to, something there's been a fair bit of discussion about the lack of at a raid level so far in other threads, making it a default rather than a chosen trade off of survivability versus agro.

Cryect · 12/19/06, 1:12 AM

I worked out a 12.5 second rotation which seems fairly maximal for such a short rotation.

Works out to the below most important numbers with the exacts in the updated original post.

Threat Per Second ~= A*(1+C)*(P*0.446+678)+185.6
Rage Required Per Second = 168 Rage/12.5 Seconds = 13.44 Rage/Second

A = Armor Mitigation
P = Attack Power
C = Crit Rate

Now this would be fairly optimal if lacerate never missed/dodged/parried though you do get one chance to try again with replacing a swipe before the Lacerate debuff falls off.

Cryect · 12/19/06, 1:16 AM

If we assume

A=70%
C=25%

Then we get the below much simplified number

Threat Per Second ~= P*0.39+778

Cryect · 12/19/06, 1:24 AM

One more interesting thing from the numbers we can work out though will need to redone potentially with new Lacerate numbers is determine at what Attack Power is it better to replace Lacerate with an additional Swipe

A*(1+C)*(P*0.24174+290)=4*580

Using the numbers of A=70% and C=25%

P*0.212+254=2320
P=9745

In otherwords, swipe will never replace using Lacerate for maximum aggro on single targets where you can build and maintain a 5 stack of Lacerate which was pretty much expected (well never meaning not till we get the gear to allow that much Attack Power but that will be a long way off at which time most of this will prolly change a lot).

Boevis · 12/19/06, 1:54 AM

Just to be a smart ass:
OMG Lacerate doesn't scale?!?!

I'm very pleased with it as a threat generating ability. All this talk of abusing Mangle to buff rip to insane levels has me thinking ... it would also buff Lacerate to insane threat levels if the same trick worked. If my math is right ... over 50,000 threat per tic on lacerate with 20 Mangles.

LFG 20 Druid Onyxia!!

Cryect · 12/19/06, 2:28 AM

Originally Posted by Cryect

Threat Per Second ~= P*0.39+778
Rage Required Per Second = 168 Rage/12.5 Seconds = 13.44 Rage/Second

Took me a while to refind these but wanted to compare them to similarly generated Warrior numbers I found using the same

Originally Posted by Asic

Grand Total: 719.7 * 1.15 * 1.3 -> 1075.9 TPS
RPS needed un-modified by talents: (4*15 + 20 + 5 + 2*15)/6 -> 19.2RPS -> 1573 DPS taken
RPS modified by talents: 13.2 RPS -> 914.2 DPS taken

http://beta.worldofwarcraft.com/thre...400885&sid=1#6

So we can see the rage needed by both warriors and druids in this situation is very similar.

Then for comparison purposes

P*0.39+778=1075.9 TPS
P=764

So 764 attack power is around the break even point for comparison to this similarly generated warrior threat values which are a whole lot less attack power based than the druid numbers are of course. So generally you will expect on a single target that a druid is likely generating more aggro.

Anias · 12/19/06, 7:04 AM

Something rarely examined is the threat gained from actual rage gen. 5 threat per point of rage you actually generate (so over genning you 100 doesn't do anything).

It's late, but it's not an insignifigant amount, and it has some interesting behavior. If I remember I'll try to model it tommorrow. Short summary - capping out at 100 rage, being less threat per rage efficient actually gens a bit more threat than you'd expect simply because you clear more room to generate additional rage.

Roana · 12/19/06, 8:55 AM

Originally Posted by Anias

Something rarely examined is the threat gained from actual rage gen. 5 threat per point of rage you actually generate (so over genning you 100 doesn't do anything).

It is fairly insignificant, actually, because it is not modified by defensive stance/bear form. Gaining 5 point of rage from a Swipe or Maul crit means 25 points of threat. If you crit every third Maul and every third Swipe in a boss fight (assuming a 33% crit rate or thereabouts), that comes out to about 9 extra threat per second.

In a multi-mob tanking situation, note that threat from rage being generated is split evenly between mobs, just as threat from healing or buffs.

Normal rage generation from taking damage or doing white damage does not create any additional threat.

Glaurong · 12/19/06, 12:12 PM

Would a 70 druid mind posting base stats? Str, Agi, Sta, HP, Armor? I dug around last night and couldn't find them anywhere.

Also Cyrect your description of the AP gain for swipe is mis-worded. It the formula below you have is correct (0.07 * AP) then it should read "1 damage per 14 AP".

Edit - Filling in a few things with guesses, 1500 hp, 70 str, 70 agi, 70 sta naked.

Gear:
Staff http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=13907
Back http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=15139
Chest http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16960
Feet http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16382
Finger 1 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16315
Finger 2 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16451
Hands http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16071
Head http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16961
Legs http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16958
Neck http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16400
Shoulders http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16959
Trinket 1 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16494
Trinket 2 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16834
Waist http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=9940
Wrist http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16188

Head/Leg/Shoulder Enchants:
http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=15715
http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16877
http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=8507

Other Enchants:
Enchant 2H Weapon - Savagery
Enchant Cloak - Major Armor
Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats
Enchant Boots - Fortitude
Enchant Ring - Stats
Enchant Ring - Stats
Enchant Gloves - Threat
Enchant Bracer - Major Defense

Buffs and Consumables:
Battle Shout
Blessing of Might
Blessing of Kings
Devotion Aura
Stength of Earth
Grace of Air
Blood Pact
Elixir of Major Strength
Mark of the Wild
PW: Fortitude
Flask of Fortification
Elixer of Major Defense
Elixer of Major Agility

Final stats:

Strength: 527
Agility: 518
Stamina: 1005
Defense Rating: 180
Dodge Rating: 69

Attack Power: 2659
Armor: 22013
Health: 16313

* Additional note: With the inspiration proc up this druid will have 28616 armor, creeping up on 75% mitigation. 30% avoidance and 75% mitigation ... 17.5% incoming damage

Cryect · 12/19/06, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Also Cyrect your description of the AP gain for swipe is mis-worded. It the formula below you have is correct (0.07 * AP) then it should read "1 damage per 14 AP".

Because the number worked out to fit exactly 0.07 and 1/14 doesn't match the numbers very close at all.

Atk Pwr	Data	0.07		1 per 14
 445		152	151.998	 152.8371429
 473		154	154.5852	155.4771429
1314		232	232.2936	234.7714286
1554		254	254.4696	257.4

For 0.07 formula was (84+(Atk Pwr)*0.07)*1.1*1.2 and for 1 per 14 it was (84+(Atk Pwr)/14)*1.1*1.2

Glaurong · 12/19/06, 3:32 PM

Not saying you are wrong, just saying its mis-worded

1 damage per 0.07 Attack Power

That would mean with 1000 AP, I get 14286 damage added to my swipe!

Cryect · 12/19/06, 3:40 PM

Whoops :-p

Myonax · 12/19/06, 4:05 PM

In TBC my druid has 2 sets, A mitigation/Stam set that clocks in at 18500 Armor and 13000 health 1300AP. I rarely use this. My standard 5 man tanking set 15000 Armor 11000 Stamina and 1500 AP. While tanking an instance I am top 2 or 3 for DPS. I have never seen a TBC warrior beat anyone other then main healer for DPS. Warlocks, Rogues and Elemental shaman are the three classes that I see consistently beat me on DPS. All of the best 5 mans I have been in have a druid tank. The only time we ever prefer a warrior tank is if the content was above our level or it was a heroic mode instance. In those cases the mitigation in block/parry/dodge from a warrior are essential.