Bender

Most chars I capped with had between 200-500 gold upon dinging 60, if I understood it correctly the rate at which you gain money is much faster in outland and thus you should be able to afford a 150 skill mount by 63-64 maybe?

I am Bender, please insert girder

 

◊ Bekah

One of the more important things to think about is where you're coming form in relation to the change.

Me? I've leveled 3 60's, with varying degrees of capped raid experience. I meandered from 1-50 on an rp server before I realized I was playing much more heavily than my other friends and interested in the end game more so than the leveling game. Then I rerolled before hitting 60 on a new server and joined in the race to 60. Than after I'd played at 60 for about 6 months, I spent some time outside of raids enjoying the solo leveling experience going from 1-60 on my warlock. Another 6 months later they opened character transfers and I moved my 50 mage to skywall and finished her off quickly intending to PvP heavily with her, and possibly get some raid experience under my belt. (As I hated raiding on my warlock alt)

Pick a day out of any of those and ask how I would have viewed another 10 levels and my thoughts would have changed dramatically.

*Leveling my first toon? Okay it's just an extension to my current leveling. Just another portal to go through on the leveling curve.

*Playing at the starting end game with my first 60 and no alts? It would force me to put more into my original toon and I'd probably be very worried about bridging the gap and keeping up since I only have the single max cap toon. By the same token, it's still simply an extension of the leveling game, it's not like you've been at max cap for terribly long anyways.

*Playing mid end game (we certainly weren't running with the big dogs in BWL) with a single level 60 alt? I'd be a little worried about how I'd get them both to 70 and which one I should spend time with (because at that time I was a little burned out on my priest). It's a little more like a new game when you've been at max cap for almost a year.

*Playing serious end game with multiple level 60 alts who I've also spent significant time raiding on... I'm no longer worried about which I'm getting to 70 first (having a nice selection for choice makes it pretty clear where preferences lie) but it very much feels like an alien world and that I'm abandoning my cozy little world. I've been raiding since July '05 in a very very measured and steady progression. Suddenly the outlands is throwing all that work out the window and I get to, essentially, start over again. A feeling that I probably wouldn't have had a year ago.

It's more stressful the more you're leaving behind in the change. The people new to the game will never even feel it. The casuals and late comers will see it as opportunity and an extension of the current game.

Only the old guard will see it as the end of something that we either loved or hated for any length of time.

In short, I think the bridging will occur naturally for the majority of the player base... the rest of us will have to manage.

Edit: As for the leveling curve-

I'm not a terribly fast leveler. All 3 of my 60's took between 18 and 24 days (yes, days) to level to 60 and that 18 felt like it was flying with a lot of grouping and help from friends.Yes it's possible to level to 60 in 6 days- but that is a matter of practice and cutting all the corners.

I got to 70 on Bekah in about 2 weeks of actual play time, but very heavy play time. I'd say close to 4-6 days? I had the early beta faster curve from 60-67. I had the mid beta harsh curve from 67-70. They've toned back the curve a little again. I had no rest xp to start. I think people will work out 60-70 in less than 3 days once they've gotten it down to a fine art- which would put it at about half of the time from 1-60 for the same super efficient people.

Not a problem. It's certainly not as long as it would take most, or even some, people from 1-60. For the majority of people it'll probably take less than half of the time from 1-60 if only because 1-60 has that long 30-48 stretch of barren wasteland in questing and 60-70 is packed full of stuff to keep you constantly moving and gaining xp.

 

Dashivax

So a new player will have to keep saving gold until 62/63 to buy their epic mount, how is that different than the thousands of players that spent several weeks or months at 60 riding the level 40 mount still?

I know several players, myself included, that were able to buy an epic mount the day they hit 60 when the game was first released. Back then there wasn't a market for almost anything you found at a high level when the majority of the server was behind you, most of what you found was vendored. For a new player starting out there will be a much larger market available for items they find, they should be able to earn more than a player on the cutting edge of the leveling curve way back when.

The epic mount was a status item at lvl 60, I would hardly call it a requirement to advance past 60 now during the expansion. I also disagree that not having an epic mount is a disadvantage for a new player. The disadvantage is being a new player this late into the game in the first place. If anything they are given the advantage of earning more money while they continue to level past 60 than anyone who was still farming for their mount at the original level cap.

 

Sanchek

I've got a level 70 priest alt on beta with under 10 days played, including time spent capped at 60. It won't be a big deal at all going 1-70.

 

Aphyrax

Did you level him before or after the XP adjustment?

 

◊ Cathela

I'm at level 68 now and I've basically made 1000g in the leveling process without even trying. I could have made more if I'd been bothering to level mining and sell the ores.

A guilded level 60 without an epic mount wouldn't have a hard time getting loans from a few friends to buy an epic mount.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Sanchek

Two levels before. The rest after, but without the benefit of Blade's Edge or Shadowmoon quest xp.

 

aureon

There are actually 2 versions of Flying Mounts in Beta, one that requires a cheap flying skill and cheap mount; it is very very slow though, but at least you can fly. The other version is the 'epic' flying mount which is very fast, but is the standard 5k gold. These do both require level 70 thought.

 

Sapphrina

On the issue of epic mounts: I'm lowbie bg slumming with a couple rl friends on a server where we have no mains. The week we went from 29 to 39, we reached an average of over 500g each. And that's while buying blues off AH, using wizard oil and drinking pots in bg and so on. You honestly just need a bit of common sense (read: fishing, herby and alchy, with one tailor/chanter).

On the issue of "that much time" being "a pretty massive obstacle": Ever played DAoC? Talk about massive obstacles.. People still did it though, people are still doing it even today.

Speaking of DAoC.. When Trials of Atlantis was released, with 10 master levels, it was indeed "the old guard" who embraced it first, and were first to get them done. Because they wanted progression, because it made them stronger, gave them an advantage.

The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag:
Schrödinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.

 

Northerner

Oh, I was certainly talking about the old-school epic mounts and not the flying version. While everyone will eventually need (assuming they intend to hit the content) some form of flying mount, they certainly don't need the epic version. I can see a case being made that it will be a huge factor for resource-farming and possibly pvp and such but I do see it as less of a distinction than from a standard ground mount to an epic ground mount.

It's not that I can't afford such things, it's more that even I can't justify having all my damn alts kitted out in epic mounts at present costs. Given that, I can see 'new' 60s being strapped on cash to the point where they'll be hitting 70 fairly naturally without still having an epic ground mount because they are saving for that flying mount they really want. Perhaps the whole riding skill thing will be the block there anyhow, as I am not exactly sure if you can purchase the higher ranks without the lower. Until now I must admit I never really thought about it much.

Again, it's not something I worry about much but it could well be a barrier to entry for new levellers who were not capped at 60 for that now standard period of time. Then again, they won't have faced the repair costs and consumables so much either ;')

EDIT: I certainly did play DAoC and although ToA was an annoying expansion with a ton of bad blocks (and was when I left for a variety of reasons), I wouldn't put them even close to the top in terms of MMO timesinks =) Old EQ still holds all the titles for me, although EVE's ramp-up period drove me a little insane as well. Hard isn't bad though, I was more thinking that the mount situation would be perceived as a problem by much of WoW's player-base rather than that I personally think it is too difficult or something like that. For core players I certainly don't see even the epic flying mounts being a problem at all.

 

Sanchek

150 riding skill is a requirement for training 225.

 

Kink

I think the gap became much much closer.

If you want to raid, there is a gear requirement and I have spent a LOT longer aqcuiring my gear than I did levelling to 60.

Now that playing field will be evened. Someone could start at lvl 1 and hit 70 about 3-4 weeks (new players will level a lot slower than 5days /played =), in that extra month of instance grinding, all this new guy needs is a bit more luck than I have and he will be kitted out no problems.

I had the worst time getting shadowcrap for my first rogue. It became such a joke I started to keep count of the runs and without exaggeration I was at something like:

45 Drakki kills, no tunic drops
53 scholo runs cap taken by a 53 rogue once, and a druid the other time. Boots dropped for me on the 4th tho.

and I forget the numbers for the other instances, but once I was raiding, I got my nightslayer about 4x faster than my shadowcrap =).

For my second rogue, the one I play now, I just got the PvP gear. Which is what I will do in TBC too. I have a lot of saved honor, just for this purpose. Sadly I do not know if there even IS any blue/epic lvl 70 PvP gear, but either way I'll keep accruing honor coz I am helping my gf get her hunter some items still =).


WoW's appeal to casuals is partly in how easy it is to get into the game. The quest system is excellent, and levelling is pretty damn fast.

There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.

 

rawrz

What will it look like for a player who reaches 60 just around the release of TBC? Are quests and instances designed around people decked out in purples, or will they be doable for people in random blues and BOE greens? I've never found a place that paints a complete picture.

 

Kink

I think people in greens at 60 will just move a bit slower, but *EVER* quest reward will be a HUGE upgrade for them. Its a bit slower than being in T3, but I bet it'll be a lot more fun =)

There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.

 

Meynar

I really dont see the epic mount as being an issue in anyway personally. Ive been playing for a fair bit and due to affection for my crappy mount never felt the need to get an epic one. My housemates disagreed with me and bought me 1 (admittedly using my money) and yet i still dont see the point in riding it. You really gain very very little from an epic mount its the equivalent of a BMW compared to a Ford (60% mount) swisher, faster, more expensive but does it actually do anything different (lets ignore accessories its not a perfect analogie). I dont think saving for an epic mount or indeed buying one is an integral part of the WoW experience its just an unecessary drain on player resources with very little actual benfit. This being said im notoriously cheap.

I tend to agree with the chap in a previous post who says that new players will see it as a continous curve rather than 2 seperate games which is i think largely what Blizzard are so good at, keeping a continuity of purpose with their games and x-pacs etc. Personally im looking forward to rerolling a Draenai Shaman and doing the whole lvling thing again although i am a tad disturbed by how the male Draenais speech pattern is scarily reminiscent of a Brave Heart extra.

 

rawrz

The reason I never bothered to get an epic mount was that at 60, you pretty much spend your time inside MC/BWL and whatnot (I dropped my two gathering professions for enchanting and ..leatherworking). The only downside for me is not being able to /follow guildies when we travel to the instances.

 

Brunswick

As was stated, whether a epic land mount is necessary for Outlands or a status symbol quickly becomes unimportant when you realize that to get the flying mount skill, you have to already have the epic land mount riding skill. So whether you want it or not, you will need to shell out the reported 640g (in beta and presumably in TBC) for the 150 skill before you can shell out the 1000g for the 225 normal flying skill and mount. As far as I can tell, flying mounts are needed to access some of the lvl 70 content, making them much more important to 70's then epic mounts ever were to 60's.

As for leveling from 1-70, it doesn't seem like too much of a chore right now. But ~2 years from now you can bet it will be one hell of a chore to reroll to that new *insert shiney new class and race here* from 1-90. That is why I quit FFXI the day WoW came out, having joined FFXI late. I invested a lot of time in that game and was only lvl 40 (the expansion had just come out making max lvl 75 or lvl 80) and the end game content seemed incredibly out of reach.

 

Dynalisia

It all depends on the reason you make an alt. I recently made my first alt ever, in any game, just to experience the entire leveling game again with my friends on another server and I enjoyed it tremendously. I've now been 60 for a while and if there had been 70 more levels that would just have been extra joy. If you level your alt because you eventually want to mainswitch in a raiding guild, or play it as some kind of 'release' in groups, while you keeping raiding with another char, then I can imagine you care diddley squat about that 1-max game and just want it done asap.

Any deligirent person that is smart and picks herbalism and mining as their profession when starting a new char will have little issue getting an epic mount at 60. The downside is that it means you have go out of your way to pick up that silversage each time and if you're hellbent on leveling your new main asap, I can imagine that you don't want to.

Another thing is the inflation of the ease of obtaining certain gear at a certain level. Right now we haven't come to the point yet where low level players have an easier time obtaining good gear now, than a year ago, as it is in the high end game at the moment, but that doesn't mean we won't ever see it happen. When Blizzard releases new content for low to medium levels, they have to create incentive for people to go there and the easiest way to go about that is the Dire Maul effect - unless they will keep releasing a new race with content like that every time. I expect that we'll eventually have that saturating all level ranges and at that point, a grind like 1-90 in FFXI won't occur anymore.

This thing Bekah wrote about is maybe the most interesting thing in this thread. My main is a quasi-highend equipped warrior that has around half a year of /played and in that time I have never really played any alts, except my most recent one - but it was never because I was bored with my main. I am looking forward to TBC for the same thing that Bekah dreads: The evening out of the playerbase, the fresh start. I wonder Bekah, why do you think that whatever comfortable position you have now won't be attainable by you again in TBC? Is your guild going under? Friends leaving the game?

 

Sanchek

There are definitely some spots where the going gets tough in crappy gear, but T1/T2 quality greens and blues are fairly easy to come by while you level up.

You couldn't pay me to go without an epic flying mount in the Outlands though. It's physically very large to begin with, and the shape of it makes being able to fly in straight lines a huge time saver. Not to mention the top end mount is over twice as fast as even the current epics. It's really damn nice.

 

Symbul

Thott beta section already has almost all the quests covered. At least the ones I've done in HFP/Zangar/Nagrand/BEM.

I've played Beta a bit and it looks like people will be able to blast through 60-70 fast, and enjoy it too. The shift from 1-60 questing to 60-70 questing is huge. Not only do Azeroth quests have crappy rewards nearly all the time, but not since the starting locations have the quests been so condensed and efficiently completed. The huge quest XP (don't think I've done any proper quests with less than 10k xp at intended level) makes it also a shift from grinding levels in Azeroth, which I usually do except for a handful of quest hubs, to being able to just finish quests nonstop and hand them in. There's no reason to mob-grind levels anymore. Well, unless you want to be the king of the Sporeggar or need a Talbuk mount for some inexplicable reason.

Edit: I've also tried leveling a crappy geared Warrior from 60-64 on beta (complete with non-epic mount) that had just dinged 60 on live (rank 8 though). It was a challenge sometimes in HFP early on but the green and blue quest rewards quickly sort out the gear to an acceptable standard and by the time I hit Zangarmarsh I was quite content with my power level. It's not T2-3 but you'll get a ~T1 replacement for just about any slot very fast.

 

◊ Bekah

Not personally. My guild is about as strong as any guild that's managing to hold on to it's identity through the changes (Raided right up until this last week, planning on raiding again starting the second until expac hits) and most of my friends are hanging on and looking forward to the expansion.

I expect my position to be as easily obtainable as it was from the start on Skywall. Being on the ground floor when a game/server/expansion releases and planting both feet firmly into whatever goals you have for months upon months upon months.... tends to yield what I've got. A solid position of authority (if desired) and some leniency for my quirks (I'm a shadow priest in a naxx guild) along with a respectable fiscal worth and the ability to pursue whatever in game goals that strike my fancy. KT and Sapph are probably beyond my reach in the near future, but compared to your average player? That's not too much content to be shut out of. PvP, PvE, the world is my oyster. I know I'm going to be here in 6 months, I can plan that far ahead without any worries. I expect to roll with the expansion and come out smelling roses on the other side.

A LOT of other people seem to fear or at least have a strong aversion to the gear resetting and progress resetting that's coming with the loss of the current endgame. People stressing out about gearing for the expansion, stressing out about whether they can be back to full time raiding in 3 weeks, spazzing about Tier 3 being of questionable worth for several classes at 70, etc. You see it less here (because luckily we've got heavy moderation against whiners) but it's all OVER the place elsewhere. You'd think the end of the world was quickly approaching form the blizz boards.

The sensible approach is nice, but certainly not all that common =P

 

spronk

My experience in the beta is that the flying mount is the most game changing item. I love flying around just exploring, diving, seeing how high up I can fly, flying up face to face with mobs and looking at them from various angles, etc. The sheer amount of time you save by going straight from point A to B instead of curving around paths is insane. I hate going to Azeroth now because I can't use my flying mount.

Much of the terrain in outlands is bisected by void zones or other obstacles, so it helps out tremendously. Now of course its debatable whether an epic flying mount is needed or not, so the costs are fairly reasonable - around 2k total I think from 1-70 to get the flying mount? 500g (new 60 training cost) + 720g (70 training cost) + a bit for the mount itself. The 4500g required for the epic riding skill is harsh, but at least you have the option of getting the regular flying mount for a lot cheaper.

 

nefas

As someone who believes in playing one character its easy to sympathize with this fear. I have four 60's and more 40+ characters than I care to count. However, I spend all my time and effort with one character. Run zones till you have every useful piece of gear remotely imaginable. Grind faction till your exalted with every rep. Doing this for stuff I dont even need yet. Seeing most of this work being resetted is annoying but expected due to my long experience with MMO's. Even if WoW is someones first MMO they have seen these mini resets with rep, resist gear, instances, PvP rewards, etc that effectivly null out the pioneers hard work. Even someone who has played online games like D2 are used to ladder resets.

In the end though, I think its really to the benefit of the raiders. Keeping the game popular and friendly will only lengthen the market life and diversity of the game. I would be nice to have some sort of lasting effect, mark, or recognition for the time and effort other than having all the holiday pets since release but, I wont hold my breath nor expect it.

I do look forward to the expansion and it has renewed my interest. The other side of me looks forward to the flux and change. Especially since the reset allows me to think about changing classes and be none the worse for it. Doing that currently with the lvl 60 cap is scary due to the thought of re-doing all the rep, gear, etc.

 

◊ Belac_K

It would be pretty stupid if you got an epic mount that you couldn't use due to level requirements. Actually, IIRC I think you actually have to play on a server to buy a mount.

PS: Fill out your profile.

 

• alcaras

!

I've always seen the "real" WoW as 1-59 (and now 1-69) and the cap as the aberration. :P

I, and I would imagine most newcomers, find 1-59 far more "fun" than the raid game because:
- progress is quick, levels and power upgrades are fast
- you can do much of it solo or in small groups
- as others have said, WoW's quest system is excellent

Not at all, because unlike the non-cap game in almost every other game, WoW's pre-endgame is quite fun.

I remember powerleveling up a character with my guild in DAOC, because leveling up was worse than pulling teeth. In WoW, the depth and breadth of content makes leveling up quite fun, assuming you quest and don't just do a boring mob-killing grind.

<insert quote about enjoying the journey>