It will take a while for paladins to get up to warrior level stats, but since thats simply an itemization barrier I believe that it can and will be overcome. Blizzard simply needs to itemize for it.
I haven't seen an itemization problem yet. There's no blue tanking plate TBC that says "Classes: Warrior" that I'm aware of. There are a few quest-reward items that have spelldamage and defense on them; you can combine these with a spelldamage weapon and a set of standard tanking plate to make a very strong tanking set. I've done that and tanked Karazhan trash and the first boss just fine.
[Vambraces of Courage], the best tanking bracers I've found yet, appear on multiple sites as "Classes:Warrior," which seems to be fairly arbitrary from my perspective. Anyway, I think there is an itemization issue, mainly in that our set is a little light in shield block and stam. If we are in fact the aoe tanks of choice, we'd want a lot of block, and if we're MTs/backup MTs, then we want to have comparable stam/mitigation. Either way, it's a little heavy on spell power/int and a little light on block/stam. As it stands now, though, I am almost positive I out-mitigate everyone in select situations(Malicious Instructors in Shadow Labs come to mind, <3 [Dabiri's Enigma]) and am only a little behind in most situations.
I get occasionally annoyed by the smugness in replies on any topic regarding hybrids, how people who play hybrids are by far the better players because they are used to taking on a more difficult role, or how hybrids tipically have to work harder and are more dedicated and appeal to more intelligent players, etc etc etc.
It always pollutes the discussion and makes reading them annoying. An excellent player will be an excellent player regardless of the class, and no hybrid in WoW is extremly difficult to play or to play well.
I am not going to reply to the "Hybrids got better skills" or something, but Hybrids did have alot more work to do to gather the appropriate gear. Wanted to be a competitive PvE tank? Go PvP and get your exalted AB and WSG pants instead of rolling on or having T3 defaulted to you because of your class. From my experience, offspecs do invest more cash and time into their gear than pure classes do - because they have to. The odds are stacked against them to begin with so you'll see them putting more effort into acquiring or enchanting gear than the average pure class player does. I am not saying a pure class couldn't do this but they had less need to because noone was going to doubt their classes capabilities which had been proven time and time again. I still get mocked if I tell people I put an Animist Caress (back when it was very expensive) on blue pants just because I got 20 HP more from it than a +100 HP enchant.
Anyways, derail over. :)
Trying to argue that pure classes have to do less work than hybrids in any area whatsoever is ridiculous. Anyone can pour as much effort as anyone else there are just other ways to do it. As for skill required or amount of things to do, hybrids dont have that any harder either. Playing a holy priest super well takes as much effort as playing a shadow priest super well (switching to healing and back to dps as needed). Its just harder to find good hybrids than good pure class players because hybrids tend to not play their whole class.
Edit: Slightly misread, but even in gear, Pure classes can put effort into consumables to max out their potential where hybrids have to focus more on the gear requirements for their 2-3 roles.
Edit: Slightly misread, but even in gear, Pure classes can put effort into consumables to max out their potential where hybrids have to focus more on the gear requirements for their 2-3 roles.
Feral Druid without enchants vs Rogue without enchants. Who is going to be yelled at first?
Edit: Slightly misread, but even in gear, Pure classes can put effort into consumables to max out their potential where hybrids have to focus more on the gear requirements for their 2-3 roles.
Feral Druid without enchants vs Rogue without enchants. Who is going to be yelled at first?
Neither, because anyone that dumb doesn't even get yelled at, they just get kicked. If consumables aren't optional, why the hell would enchants be?
(Prior to TBC, it was acceptable to say "I can't get a ZG enchant on these til we run ZG, and librams are such a waste." This is no longer acceptable with the incredible ease of pant and head enchants.)
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
It would seem to me that to allow 'true' hybrids to take an active part in a raid, to actually be desired and seen as useful you'd need the raid content to support it.
What they'd need to do is have raid content that was random and unpredictable. I think it's pretty much fair to say that most, if not all, raid encounters are the same each time you visit; strategies and optimum raid configurations can be calculated; and that hybrids get pigeon-holed because it's easy to see what the optimal use of that classes abilities are for any given encounter.
I was wondering: if encounters were different each time you visited, if say, that room where you needed to AoE down trash, next time had different mobs that required a strong tanking rotation on a few powerful mobs and you couldn't know this until you got to the room, whether hybrids could then perform the role that people who play them seem to want. Essentially, make it useful to take a character that was above average in a couple of roles, but not the best in either, because you couldn't predict which of those classes you would need in a given incarnation of that dungeon. This potentially becomes more pertinent now that you have fewer spaces in which to play with class balance in a raid.
I'm sure this sort of content would lead to other problems - it's not perfect - but without content of that sort, where currently most encounters can be whittled down to a spreadsheet, you have to feel that specialisation will always be king.
I'm sure this sort of content would lead to other problems - it's not perfect - but without content of that sort, where currently most encounters can be whittled down to a spreadsheet, you have to feel that specialisation will always be king.
My main comment about hybrids is that they shine the most in smaller groups. As groups get bigger and more min/maxed, the true hybrids start getting shoved out, or get pushed into a single role for the good of the group, and are no longer allowed to be hybrids.
i.e. Shamans and druids shine in 5-mans, but only the most focused shaman specs really shined in a 40-man, with a few exceptions of course, depending on your guild and what their rules were on off/hybrid specs. Many raid guilds didn't allow hybridness at all. That was the way of 40-mans for the absolute progression-above-all guilds. Hybrids just didn't show their utility much in 40-mans. I think some will be able to in 25-mans, if they're allowed to. But it won't be *necessary to progress*, so many guilds will again cut the hybrid specs out.
I've never been in such a guild, but I understand their thinking and I understand their goal. To be a member of such a guild you have to understand what your class role is in the raid, and spec accordingly. If you are a free spirit and want to *be* a hybrid, you shouldn't join. I would never join one, but, people play WoW for many different reasons, so there's space for all kinds. YMMV.
The new 5 mans as a feral druid have been amounst the most fun I have had in Wow.
Dps in cat form, tank in bear form or heal depending on the situation is great. Putting down some good dps (mangle is great), then shifting to caster to innovate the priest who was almost out of mana and topping up the MT with a bit of healing, then goign to bear to tank the adds is a nice thing to be able to do. I am hoping it will survive in the 10 mans at least, and would hope that osmething like that has some value in the 25 man, but that is more doubtful.
Blizzard said they tried, maybe it will get better in time.
My main comment about hybrids is that they shine the most in smaller groups. As groups get bigger and more min/maxed, the true hybrids start getting shoved out, or get pushed into a single role for the good of the group, and are no longer allowed to be hybrids.
The problem right now I think is that they're shafting the pure classes by catering more to the hybrids. A very simple argument can be made from gear persepctive.
I think someone made the comment before that it seems like everything dropping in 5 mans are shaman/druid/pally loot. Blizzard wanted to give hybrids gear, and since they're hybrids they need more types of gear, so there will be more of them numerically out there. That might means deeper loot tables, and lower chances that a pure class will get an upgrade. Of course this is all in the current 5 man content and it might due to selective memory (wow I just did a Underbog run where every drop was druid loot! nerf dr00ds), but from what I've seen the loot tables from instance bosses this seems to be true (by guestimating that most of the loot drop equal amount of times).
By doing so this can create a lot of frustration to pure classes early in the raiding game. I think the priest and the warrior class is currently broken due to server design oversights, along with the possible illusion (ok I know this is vague, but we don't know about future content just yet, or how the loot and raid encounters will eventually pan out) that pure classes are inferior is creating a lot of problems right now.
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. - Plato
My main comment about hybrids is that they shine the most in smaller groups. As groups get bigger and more min/maxed, the true hybrids start getting shoved out, or get pushed into a single role for the good of the group, and are no longer allowed to be hybrids.
The problem right now I think is that they're shafting the pure classes by catering more to the hybrids. A very simple argument can be made from gear persepctive.
I think someone made the comment before that it seems like everything dropping in 5 mans are shaman/druid/pally loot. Blizzard wanted to give hybrids gear, and since they're hybrids they need more types of gear, so there will be more of them numerically out there. That might means deeper loot tables, and lower chances that a pure class will get an upgrade. Of course this is all in the current 5 man content and it might due to selective memory (wow I just did a Underbog run where every drop was druid loot! nerf dr00ds), but from what I've seen the loot tables from instance bosses this seems to be true (by guestimating that most of the loot drop equal amount of times).
By doing so this can create a lot of frustration to pure classes early in the raiding game. I think the priest and the warrior class is currently broken due to server design oversights, along with the possible illusion (ok I know this is vague, but we don't know about future content just yet, or how the loot and raid encounters will eventually pan out) that pure classes are inferior is creating a lot of problems right now.
I think a lot of this illusion (and it's an illusion that people have created for themselves to cry about) is because of what most people are running right now. 5-mans. And I don't think the warrior class is broken at the moment. (I play a prot warrior, btw, so I'm speaking from experience) Since 5-mans is mostly what's going on, yeah, the hybrids are shining bright. They kick serious butt in 5-mans. The pure classes will have their day in the sun, too, never fear. As a hybrid *and* a pure-class player, there's fun for all.
Shadowpriest CC is limited to very few instances, so tipically they can DPS full time.
Completely disagree.
Shackle, AE Fear, and above all else Mind Control allow a non main healer priest many options. Mind control is EXTREMELY powerful as a CC spell, as not only can it not be removed by a party member AE'ing but depending on the mob MC'ed you get access to some pretty nifty stuff.
When my core group and I started farming Pandemonius for spirit shards. (15 min boss kill, reset, repeat) We figured out in the first few groups one of the mobs (i forget which offhand) has battle shout for 293ap. We first found this out when we had a group with no warrior. (are normal group is prot pally tank, holy pally heal, priest shadow (me) a mage for cc, and 1 open spot for random dps guildy) We eventually found out it stacks with the normal warrior battleshout.
Beyond the ability to drop out of shadowform to heal reasonably well. +477 dmg = +477 healing in my damage gear. Mind Control adds a whole new level of what abilities a shadowpriest has up their sleeve. Nothing is more awesome then MC'ing the healer on a 5 pull, and using a 2500hp grp heal, power word: shield, and a 600 per tick renew to keep your grp alive.
Edit: And just to add. There is an amazing amount of syngery between a holy paladin, and a shadow priest. The one general weakness of healidans, is they can focus heal, but have difficulty with healing the entire grp. Vamp Embrace completely nullifies this as long as the tank is doing their job and not letting anyone else get hit.
The new 5 mans as a feral druid have been amounst the most fun I have had in Wow.
Dps in cat form, tank in bear form or heal depending on the situation is great. Putting down some good dps (mangle is great), then shifting to caster to innovate the priest who was almost out of mana and topping up the MT with a bit of healing, then goign to bear to tank the adds is a nice thing to be able to do. I am hoping it will survive in the 10 mans at least, and would hope that osmething like that has some value in the 25 man, but that is more doubtful.
Blizzard said they tried, maybe it will get better in time.
Yeah I have found the utility parts of being a Druid very usefull in the kind of encounters it seems blizzard loves to put in the level 70 5 mans. I have been mostly main tanking these instances and for most of the boss fights I have encountered there is time and space to pop out of bear and toss the healer an innervate and a few of them afford enough time to get in a tick to two of tranquility (Buffed to the point of awesomness with 0 plus healing). I think 3 out of 4 bosses in shadow labs, Kargath in Shattered halls, 3 out of 5 bosses in botanica and the last boss in steam vaults all allow time for me to toss an innervate out while still main tanking the boss. While I am having a lot of fun with that I don't know how much this will continue into raiding and the content I haven't gotten to yet.
I haven't seen an itemization problem yet. There's no blue tanking plate TBC that says "Classes: Warrior" that I'm aware of. There are a few quest-reward items that have spelldamage and defense on them; you can combine these with a spelldamage weapon and a set of standard tanking plate to make a very strong tanking set. I've done that and tanked Karazhan trash and the first boss just fine.
[Vambraces of Courage], the best tanking bracers I've found yet, appear on multiple sites as "Classes:Warrior," which seems to be fairly arbitrary from my perspective.
Well, (a) I did say "blue", (b) I believe a lot of non-set plate had the warrior tag removed late in Beta ([Boots of Elusion] are another such), (c) I'd say the crafted [Bracers of the Green Fortress] are better for most applications, and (d) assuming that item is still warrior-tagged then yes, it's frustrating that a piece of tanking gear that would enhance the focal point of our tanking tree (shield blocking) is reserved for another class.
Anyway, I think there is an itemization issue, mainly in that our set is a little light in shield block and stam. If we are in fact the aoe tanks of choice, we'd want a lot of block, and if we're MTs/backup MTs, then we want to have comparable stam/mitigation. Either way, it's a little heavy on spell power/int and a little light on block/stam.
I agree fully, and this drives me up the wall every time I think about it. Most of our T4 set has roughly equal amounts of stam and int; considering that stam costs 2/3 what int costs in itemization points, that means the designers are going out of their way to skimp on stamina and give us intellect. You get the sense that the itemization team never got the memo about Spiritual Attunement.
I'm basically resigning myself to non-set tanking gear at this point, and just hoping it exists in sufficient quantity at the epic levels. It certainly does at the blue level, which I'm very happy about.
As it stands now, though, I am almost positive I out-mitigate everyone in select situations(Malicious Instructors in Shadow Labs come to mind, <3 [Dabiri's Enigma]) and am only a little behind in most situations.
Well, the Instructors will suck up a full round of Holy Shield within 4-5 seconds whether you have DE active or not. In my view the trinket is more useful for forcing blocks against mobs that don't attack that quickly.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Edit: And just to add. There is an amazing amount of syngery between a holy paladin, and a shadow priest. The one general weakness of healidans, is they can focus heal, but have difficulty with healing the entire grp. Vamp Embrace completely nullifies this as long as the tank is doing their job and not letting anyone else get hit.
And then the healing from Vampiric Touch triggers Spiritual Attunement as well, for even more mana. And in the worst case where the paladin + VE/VT can't quite keep up, the priest just pops out of shadowform and helps heal. The combination is just ungodly powerful.
I'm a Prot paladin, and I've done most of my BC leveling with two of my oldest friends in the game, a Holy paladin and a Shadow priest. Between the three of us we can cover pretty much any necessary combination of healing and tanking required for a 5-man, so we basically just plug in two dps from the guild and go to town.
The three of us have beaten a lot of outdoor quests that are suggested for 5-mans without outside help; it takes a bit longer when you only have 1 dps'er, but the group has amazing endurance so in most cases you can last long enough.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Well, the Instructors will suck up a full round of Holy Shield within 4-5 seconds whether you have DE active or not. In my view the trinket is more useful for forcing blocks against mobs that don't attack that quickly.
It's precisely because they soak up HS charges so fast that DE is good there. Non-charge based +block is like sweet, sweet candy to paladin tanks, particularly in aoe situations where block rate is fluctuating rapidly. Anyway, I use them to force blocks when engaging slow hitting mobs too, with 1.5 min cd it's not like you have to save it.
I concur on the T4 stat situation. I honestly think they are doing what they botched with genesis for druids, and they think T4 is going to be pretty good for tanking with a side of healing, or tanking 5 mans where you want some spell dmg and int. Since we have a lot of warriors in the guild(but also a lot of priests) I will probably be doing my fair share of backup healing, so I don't mind a mixed set and I am looking forward to collecting it; but I'd rather it was a series of drops rather than the de facto T4 paladin tank set. That I would prefer to see something designed to actually, you know, tank raid bosses...
Somewhat off-topic, I picked up my [Timewarden's Leggings] and [Continuum Blade] just a few nights ago... I've got to say they are must-haves for any tanking paladin, considering there just aren't any better items that I know of(considering [Mana Wrath] to be a sidegrade).
01/30/07, 3:30 PM
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