Wasn't really trying to get a list of a 25 man raid setup, but more people's opinion on what you'd pick for a "standard" choice given the new options to some classes.

You want a Shadow priest with the Warlocks and Mages for self-sustainability of health and mana, but you also want the Warlocks with the tanks for Blood Pact. Which wins?

You want Feral Druids for Melee and Moonkins for casters, but again, which wins?

Do the Shamans go with the Hunters for GoA/Mana Tide and then focus on healing the MT, or like you said in the Melee DPS group Enchancement Specced for added melee DPS synergy and Chain Healing?

There are going to be different ideal groups for fights that require higher survivability, group-specific decursing, added DPS, positions in the room, etc. But in the past those are the fights that are the exception to the choice that you wanted as a raid spec, not the reason you had someone spec that way. I was hoping to go into TBC with a little more than the plan of "See what people are specced, see how it works together, and go from there."

I think that your last line should be your plan then. Your friend likes to DPS on his Shaman? Okay, throw him in the DPS slot.

It all comes down to situations. Does your tank need Blood Pact? Does your Warlock need the benefit from VT?

It's difficult and somewhat premature to ask what the "standard" group is, especially if you're not sure what you're working with.

I'd be very interested in seeing the kind of damage output that a group setup like this would be able to put out:

- Fury Warrior
- Feral Druid (Imp.LotP)
- Enhancement Shaman
- Hunter
- Rogue


I am not sure on the hunter spec, though. Marksman for TSA, or BM for Ferocious Inspiration? +3% dmg or +AP?

Either way, this setup seems like it would be mean, very mean. And even though the shaman is enhancement spec, I don't see how he wouldnt be able to keep 2 spare +heal enchanted weapons to help with chain.heal if Imp.LotP isnt enough to cover the dmg received.

Also see:

- Shadow Priest
- Warlock
- Warlock
- Mage
- Moonkin Druid

I realize that the tried and true (alliance side, at least) Shadow Priest + Locks is a winning combo, but, with the decreased raid cap, I don't see all the warlocks being paired up with the shadow priest (someone is stuck buffing the MT in the very least), so I filled in the blanks with a mage and a moonkin druid and make the group DPS oriented, but I don't see anything keeping anyone of making it a 'hybrid' group and losing the mage/moonkin for two healers. VT mana is greatly appreciated.

Well, I more meant the list as a guideline of the importance of the various group buffs. I.e., you don't actually want a group with a shaman, feral druid, a warrior, a hunter, and another shaman. You'd probably want a shaman, 2 of your best rogues, a feral druid, and a fury warrior. The next group might have the hunter and a non-enh. shaman. I might have made things a little confusing with the tranquil air stuff, I just meant, in general, it could be considered the 5th best party buff for melee dps; but actually stacking the raid with 2 shamans in a group wastes far too many totems to be a good idea, unless for some reason the encounter demands it, or your raid has > 5 shamans. We once had a raid with 11 priest mains so I know firsthand balanced raid groups are not always what you have.

Yes, and I think that kind of answers your question. (?)

I'm not sure why you'd benchmark any 'past' instances (aside from AQ/Naxx) when predicting future raid content. The way my current guild is formed is putting a primary emphasis on getting "good" players. In our case, that can run the gambit from the hardcore theorycrafter PvE whiz kids, to the excellent raid strategists, to the unstoppable PvP killing machines, to the undergeared rogue who defies all explanation and ruins people w/out even knowing other classes abilities. With a diverse group like that I simply can't see us ever saying "Sorry ____, we can't take you b/c of your spec, or b/c we already have our quota of your class" - it's going to be "who wants to go to ABC instance" and we make due. I would hope, with a certain level of skill, this approach will be feasible - and the way things are looking, I would expect it to be.

Tree aura now provides increased healing RECEIVED to the people with the aura, instead of healing dealt.

Really, you want one of everything. 1 Moonkin druid adds about as much as one feral, as far as anyone can reasonably approximate (it's kind of hard to calculate 5% melee crit and 4% heal on a crit vs. 5% moonkin crit aura and 3% hit). The one thing you know for sure is that most of these specs have some sort of raid dps buff, so you only want 1. You get 1 resto shaman so your healers get mana tide and your MT gets earth shield and 1 enh. so your best melee dps groups gets unleashed rage and bloodlust. 1 arms warrior for the debuff, 1 fury for BS and DPS, and 1 prot to MT. The goal of all the changes to the trees was clear: Blizzard was trying to make sure every spec has at least 1 spot in a raid and by and large they've succeeded.

As for your first question, I can't see any situation in non-trivial content where you wouldn't want your MT to have Blood Pact unless it's a balls to the wall dps race and you have room in the shadow priest's group.

I'll limit my response to just which buffs I'd prioritize, as I think this starts to get into the whole "what's the optimal 25 man raid" question that's been heaped a few times.

If you're trying to prioritize melee buffs, I'd say totems, then battleshout, anything else is nice to have. Battleshout works out to a ~20-25% increase to AP for rogues which is a significant chunk of dps. In a pinch that warrior can also boost everyone in his group's health by 730. Since it's either commanding shout or battleshout for warriors now, you probably will not ever want a rogue in with the MTs.

I can see paladins in the MT group, but not the melee dps group. Shamans seem much better suited to supporting dps, paladins are better for defense. If mitigation really matters the shaman can always drop a grace of air totem which will bost the AC, dodge, crit rate, and AP (for the rogues) of their group. I'd much rather have that over the higher AC of devotion aura. For rogues, avoidance is usually more important than armor mitigation since we'll usually get 2 shot without a heal even with a higher AC.

Effects like Imp LOTP are more supplemental healing than replacement healing. In most encounters where there's splash damage, you're taking more than 4% of your health every 6 seconds. It's nice to have, but not game-changing. The main reason to put the druid in there is to maximize Unleashed rage uptime, flurry uptime, and boost your rogue's dps by from the higher crit rate (seal fate and lethality will increase this beyond the 5% you'd expect).

If we're talking just pure dps, you'd be better served by having an enhancement shaman, fury warrior, 2 rogues and either either a rogue, druid, or (less likely) hunter. The question is whether or not the dps lost from the rogue who isn't getting the shaman/warrior buffs is greater than the gain the other guys get from having a druid or hunter.

TSA is a static amount of AP, 5% crit from LOTP and windfury totems scale a bit more quickly with gear. It will be a function of spec, encounter design, and gear as to which buff is "better".

Tank group (1)-
In this group would go the MT, a DPSadin (Sanctity Aura), Tree Druid if it's there, the OT, and either a Holy Paladin (if the MT or OT isn't a Paladin with Devotion Aura) or an encounter-specific class. I'm not including Shaman in there because they have huge DPS buffs (totems and Blood Lust).

Physical DPS groups (2)-
Just stick all the Feral Druids, Enhancement Shaman, Warriors, Hunters, and Rogues in here. One max Feral Druid and Enhancement Shaman per a group, to avoid overlap.

Caster DPS groups (1.5)-
How to divide up caster DPS group buffs depends a lot on the encounter. Shadow Priests and Shaman division is dependent on how heavy the mana drain is on the healing vs DPS.

Healer group (0.5)-
This group slots in with the caster DPS group. The group buffs overlap a bit.

-----------

The Shadow Priest is probably the hardest character to slot into a group. The group aura they provide is insanely powerful. Of any spec in TBC, Shadow Priest is the one I expect groups to use the most of. If Vampiric Touch continues to stack, I'd expect groups to seriously consider taking three Priests for a raid. Even if it doesn't stack, I'd always shoot for one Shadow Priest for each of the caster groups. Of course, the odd thing about it is that the spec that benefits the most from having a Shadow Priest (Elemental Shaman and Balance Druid) offers the least to the Priest because of the weakness of crit for the Shadow spec.

Just saying "You want one of everything" doesn't work when you put it into a grouped setting. Sure you want all of the buffs possible for maximum effectiveness, but you still require a certain number of people performing a certain number of primary roles and not just being along to buff others while under-performing in a primary role.

The following group of:
Fury Warrior, Feral Druid (Imp.LotP), Enhancement Shaman, Hunter, Rogue

Looks great, but does it perform the role of Self-sustaining DPS better than:
Fury Warrior, Rogue, Rogue, Rogue, Resto Shaman

or
Fury Warrior, Rogue, Rogue, Feral Druid, Resto Shaman


Where do the off-spec buffs to the primary roles outweigh just another person performing their primary role?

And therein lies the judgement call that will contribute to making tBC *more* fun than WoW 1.0.

Take for example feral druids. I've played with good ones, and I've played with shitty ones. There are types of encounters bear tanks are good for - and math can tell you when to bring a kitty along. However, over and above the "what type of encounter is this" question, you have to ask yourself, do my feral druids suck? Are they geared appropriately? This is the gray area that appears to be causing some sort of block. This is one of those things, unless I'm misinterpreting the question, that there is no answer for.

Know your guildmates, know the encounters, work with what you have. Which, were I given my druthers, is how I'd prefer the game operates. I believe a lot of readers here would agree with that sentiment - the "You need X raid comp for Y encounter" business has gotten stale.