I've been reading these forums for months, and I've seen the countless discussions on new off-specs (possibly) being desired in a raid setting in the future. I don't really want to know 100 more opinions on why a certain offspec should be justified in a raid setting, but rather how would you go about arranging them, and everyone else in a raid for maximum performance.

For example, my standard melee DPS group right now consists of : Rogue, Rogue, Warrior, Hunter, Paladin.

That gives 3 melee dps BS and TSA, as well as auras for some additional mitigation (Devo, FR) and a spot healer for the group. I had opted against a feral druid previously due to TSA being a better DPS return than the 3% crit version of LoTP, and prevent the headache of trying to find more druids. I thought this was a pretty easy breakdown.

With TBC you open up into more possibilities. You can replace the Paladin with a Shaman for totems/spot healing, but do you want him Enhancement specced for Unleashed Rage or Resto Specced for Earth Shield? Would you prefer a Feral Druid for Imp LotP and do you think that will cover enough of the spot-healing needs for the group? Are there even going to be enough warriors to have them in DPS groups to give the Rogues Battleshout? Is TSA outclassed by Imp LotP/Totems?

Not only DPS, but healing as well, how much do you clump the healers, do you want the shamans with them for Mana Tide, or were they better served with the melee DPS. What about the mana returns from a potential Shadow Priest?

I was able to come up with a dozen or so different, seemingly viable group makeups for 25 raiders that didn't involve having more than 4 of any one class, and no less than 2 of any one class. But they were always giving up something for each group, I'm wondering what everyone else thinks will become some "standard" raid setups for 25 man raids in TBC.

I'm not sure there will be any "standard" group as such. There will be optimal groups based on the combination of classes and specs you have available to you. If you have a shadow priest, you'll stick them in a group full of casters. If you have an enhancement shaman, they go in a melee group. Most of the choices will be fairly clear-cut. I can say that LotP druid, Enhancement shaman, Fury warrior, and 2x rogue seems like the optimal melee group if you've got people of appropriate specs. Lots and lots of synergy.

Now, if you want to talk "optimal 25-man class/spec makeup" then that's a bit too abstract to really discuss, and has been a subject of multiple heaped threads in the past.

No AE heal for the melee group is bad, bad news on TBC content.

Woddy, which encounters are you thinking of?

That group is pretty snarking good for melee damage though.

Shadow Labs was the one that sprang immediately to mind(the one with the 50% whammie), but I've seen Snore complaining about mass AE damage on a fairly regular basis.

But yes, if you could get away with that healing the raw damage that could crank out is nuts. Imp. LotP is ridiculous.

Imp LotP!

PoH isn't really a tool I see priests using very often in melee groups in ordinary raid settings. Chain heal is ridiculously good now with talent changes, and can cover melee DPS in general very well regardless of group. Obviously if it's a fight like Sapphiron or Viscidus or something, you wouldn't set up a group like that.

In general I anticipate a lot less need for group-based healing except where you specifically need to set up groups to take advantage of things like PoH, if only because 25 people are a lot easier to keep track of than 40. But we shall see, of course.

Speaking from absolute ignorance about TBC raid content, wouldn't the combination of available Chain Heals from the shaman + Imp. LotP heals (4% of your total hp healed every 6 seconds) be enough to cover most AoE damage?

Edit: EJ's Law of Boxing Day: Wodin and Gurgthock will always post faster than you.

Seems that tanking/melee groups are going to get REAL crowded in the Xpac. Tree druids, LotP druids, enh shaman, pallys, rogues, warriors, TSA hunters, locks for bloodpact, hell maybe even shadow priests for vampiric embrace: all classes I'd love to throw into a melee group.

I think it will be just like raid groups in WoW classic. There are many ideal groups which have alot of off specs and vary from encounter to encounter. However, unless your one of those very rare guilds where you have a shadow priest, LotP druid, enhancement shaman, etc etc waiting to swap in/out for a boss fight most times you wont ever get that 'ideal group' but its just something to aim for.

JoL will probably heal for more on average from what I've seen, especially with Imp Sanctity Aura. (Assuming you don't already have JoL from a Paladin in a different group).

Since you won't have every spec of every class available, you simply have to make a list of "party-only abilities" and compose your groups based on that(and the mechanics of the fight, where applicable.) It's pretty easy to determine which group abilities have the greatest impact, though sometimes it's difficult to remember everything every spec of every class has.

For an MT group, which I would construct first:
1. Warlock with Blood Pact is still king.
2. Paladin with Imp. Sanct Aura for +6% healing.
3. Paladin with Devotion Aura (Imp. preferred).
4. ToL druid for +25% spirit healing.
(if one of the above is not available)
5. Shaman for Windfury, SoE totems.
6. Feral Druid for Imp. LoTP.

The last two become more important if aggro is of more concern than mitigation for the encounter.

Next I would construct a Caster group.

Caster DPS Group:
1. Moonkin (stack with fire mages > other mages > warlocks).
2. Ele. Shaman for totem of wrath, wrath of air (could the names get more confusing?).
3. Shadow priest (More important for warlocks, less for mages).
4. Other shaman for Tranquil Air.

For a Melee DPS Group:
1. Enh. Shaman for Unleashed Rage, totems, spot heals.
2. Feral druid Imp. LotP.
3. Warrior for battleshout.
4. Hunter for TSA, Furious Howl, Feriocious Inspiration, what have you.
5. Another Shaman for tranquil air(more important with more warriors, irrelevant with more hunters, pick and choose).

Healer group:
1. Resto shaman for Mana tide.
2. Shadow Priest for Vampiric Touch.
3. Imp. Conc. Paladin.

The biggest commodity for party wide buffs will still be shaman; I'd stack them with your "heavy-hitters" on non-trivial content to ensure the most return on investment.

EDIT: Shadow priests.

All of them? Harder to think of a fight without AE damage.

Is the priest 41-point holy talent still an out of group prayer of healing? Between that and chain heal I don't really see a problem.

I really like this approach and was going to use something only slightly more vague myself when suggesting group makeups for a raid; however, I noticed that you had quite a few shaman in the groups that you're suggesting, making room for a shaman for ~just~ Tranquil Air on a couple of occasions--is there any reason for that? (Do you see Tranq Air being necessary on a fairly large scale, even with Blessing of Salvation?)

AE damage these days is either ridiculous or survivable. Usually in Karazhan I actually won't have any healers at all in one group. Crazy? Maybe.

Kody aka Snore complains about AE damage like on Sunday when we ran The Escape from Durnholde in the new Heroic difficulty.

When Lieutenant Drake whirlwinds, he really means it. The damage he puts out is literally, OVER NINE THOUSAND! (11k on cloth, to be precise).

Subsequently, when Skarloc decided to ruin our fun, he also decided to lay down consecrates that ticked for about 600 damage.

As far as AE damage goes though, I feel that the worst culprit by far though is the Arcane Discharge ability from Heroic-Chrono Lord Deja. I haven't really seen worse in either Karazhan or Gruuls lair at the moment.