While it's very hard to mathematically calculate how much it actually effect mitigation, it's still a significant boost for warriors (and this is also disregarding that you can't crit/crush on a block since rumors says this is going to change).
This "rumor" started with ONE single comment by a blue about crushing blow being a sacrosanct protection.
The comment could be interpreted in many ways not all implying that shield block negating crits is getting changed.
Let this rumor crap die now, until it is further substantiated.
As for block mitigation in the addon. The block value is going, but so is the hit damage. So I dont expect it to play a more important role than now. It doenst really matter that much if you are blocking for 250 when the mob hits for 2.5 K and more.
The only valid reason for blocking is negating crushes/crits. If it were not for that, I could not care less for my blocking rate and value.
Dude, I think you got a little too much of a hardon for you Druid to realize how insane you sound
Blizzard has said flat out that Warriors are INTENDED to be the #1 choice for tanking. If anything threatens that fact, they will change it. Example: Druids just got a threat nerf
You will never be the #1 choice for tanking in WoW. Period. The developers of this game will not allow it. It completely negates the role of a prot warrior and they cannot make a class obsolete.
However, Blizzard does want to provide alternatives to Warriors as tanks so guilds dont sit around all day waiting for their Warriors to logon. But if both are logged on, a guild should choose a prot warrior over a feral druid to tank (disregarding any gear gap)
Dude, can you point me to that quote where a developer is stating warriors are seen as the #1 tank by whom all other tanks are to be measured?
Hint: Tseric is just a community manager. No developer. And knows how to pop enrage.
Dude, I think you got a little too much of a hardon for you Druid to realize how insane you sound
Blizzard has said flat out that Warriors are INTENDED to be the #1 choice for tanking. If anything threatens that fact, they will change it. Example: Druids just got a threat nerf
You will never be the #1 choice for tanking in WoW. Period. The developers of this game will not allow it. It completely negates the role of a prot warrior and they cannot make a class obsolete.
Druids were never going to be the #1 choice for raid tanking anyway. Prot warriors were never in danger of becoming obsolete.
That said I don't necessarily disagree with the threat nerf. I can still hold aggro fine, I just need to concentrate a little more on how I use my rage.
It isn't doom and gloom and certainly will not paralyze druid tanking.
All I cant point you to is the posts by Tseric where he specifically says that Warriors are intended to be the #1 tank. If we cant trust blue to tell us what the developers are thinking who are we supposed to trust? People randomly posting here? Community managers are the frickin voice of the developers.
Q u o t e:
There are lots of people sayiing that Bear Druids or Paladins or both hold hate better than Warriors, period...Protection or non-Protection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If that is truly the case, Druids or Paladins or both will likely see changes to their threat mechanics. Warriors have always been intended to be a primary choice for tanking. That is not going to change, even with Druids and Paladins receiving tanking buffs. Yes, they weren't that good at it before and the devs do want to increase their viability in that role, but it should not be exceeding the capabilities of warriors. If it does, as I said, it'll probably get reigned in some
Azry: You shouldnt have replied.. suicuique is perfectly aware that Tseric has posted that, and Tseric is pretty known for his 'false claims' in the past. As it is now (with druids loosing a big advantage), I'd say it boils down to itemisation for now. Community managers are people in between the community and the developers, but it wouldnt be the first time any of them posts a 'personal opinion' which is neglected by the developers.
Actually druids will be the highest melee damage mitigation tanks. Seems like they will be able to push their dodge a large chunk above warriors dodge+parry. Couple that with armor values that is more effective than warrior armor+defensive stance (Shield and Shield Block will compensate but not enough) and druids will be sitting as the highest melee mitigation tanks in the game, while paladins and warriors will be superior for spelldamage mitigation (especially Spell Reflect makes up something special).
But you're totally disregarding shield block when saying that aren't you? While it's very hard to mathematically calculate how much it actually effect mitigation, it's still a significant boost for warriors (and this is also disregarding that you can't crit/crush on a block since rumors says this is going to change).
While block didn't do much in the 1-60 game, it will do a ton in the 60-70 + end game, especially with the focus on block amount from the start of 60.
Nope im not disregarding Shield Block, its just that the new dodge formula for druids is insane (i can find no other way to describe it), it has amazing scaling and a druid should very well end on 8-10% more avoidance than a warrior. Thats way beyond ANYTHING Shield Block can even compensate for when the warrior is sitting at 15k armor and the druid is sitting at 24k armor (these are confirmed level 70 values based on gear available in TBC).
If anyone wishes to do some theorycraft of their own, the new armor formula for post-60 is the following (this formula was figured by me and several druids on the US Druid Boards and is confirmed by comparing to ingame armor values from beta):
armor / (armor - 22168 + 467.5 * Enemy level )
Armor cap (75%) is with this formula 35879 for level 73 mobs.
Druid need 14.71 agility for 1% dodge at level 70. Theorycraft shows druids stacking 30%+ unbuffed dodge at level (this is primary theorycraft which means its confirmed by people who actually attained some of the gear necessary to get there). Add the fact that agility scales with several buffs compared to +defense and +parry/dodge rating (including BoKings, GoAir totem doing more to druids than warriors etc.). Highest theorycrafted druid dodge using standard attainable raid buffs at level 70 as well as the best tanking gear available shows 24k armor, 18 or 19k HP and 55%+ buffed dodge for a feral druid which is 8-12% more avoidance than a warrior. Paladins was a bit further behind as well. Warrior was a 15k armor, 1k HP behind the druid (with raid buffs, druids lack a bit of stamina on their gear so its not a large HP gap) and around 45% avoidance compared to the druid with Deflection and Anticipation.
This "rumor" started with ONE single comment by a blue about crushing blow being a sacrosanct protection.
The comment could be interpreted in many ways not all implying that shield block negating crits is getting changed.
Let this rumor crap die now, until it is further substantiated.
As for block mitigation in the addon. The block value is going, but so is the hit damage. So I dont expect it to play a more important role than now. It doenst really matter that much if you are blocking for 250 when the mob hits for 2.5 K and more.
The only valid reason for blocking is negating crushes/crits. If it were not for that, I could not care less for my blocking rate and value.
Oh good it's just a rumor then.
I wouldn't dismiss shield block as much as you do. If you mitigate 250 damage from a 2500 hit, you just mitigated 10% of the attack and mind you, shied block is counting after all other mitigation.
While a 2500 hit will most likely be pretty low in the expansion, but so will a 250 block I would assume.
Nope im not disregarding Shield Block, its just that the new dodge formula for druids is insane (i can find no other way to describe it), it has amazing scaling and a druid should very well end on 8-10% more avoidance than a warrior. Thats way beyond ANYTHING Shield Block can even compensate for when the warrior is sitting at 15k armor and the druid is sitting at 24k armor (these are confirmed level 70 values based on gear available in TBC).
If anyone wishes to do some theorycraft of their own, the new armor formula for post-60 is the following (this formula was figured by me and several druids on the US Druid Boards and is confirmed by comparing to ingame armor values from beta):
armor / (armor - 22168 + 467.5 * Enemy level )
Armor cap (75%) is with this formula 35879 for level 73 mobs.
Druid need 14.71 agility for 1% dodge at level 70. Theorycraft shows druids stacking 30%+ unbuffed dodge at level (this is primary theorycraft which means its confirmed by people who actually attained some of the gear necessary to get there). Add the fact that agility scales with several buffs compared to +defense and +parry/dodge rating (including BoKings, GoAir totem doing more to druids than warriors etc.). Highest theorycrafted druid dodge using standard attainable raid buffs at level 70 as well as the best tanking gear available shows 24k armor, 18 or 19k HP and 55%+ buffed dodge for a feral druid which is 8-12% more avoidance than a warrior. Paladins was a bit further behind as well. Warrior was a 15k armor, 1k HP behind the druid (with raid buffs, druids lack a bit of stamina on their gear so its not a large HP gap) and around 45% avoidance compared to the druid with Deflection and Anticipation.
You're mainly talking about avoidance here though, which may or may not be a very strong point for a druid.
AC is irrelevant and hard to measure with so I for one prefer mitigation values since the armor / mitigation relation is exponential and thus it doesn't say much....
Anyway...
I haven't played the expansion beta at all and thus I don't know whether 55% or 65% mitigation are common values for a warrior, but even with 60% mitigation, a druid can only be 5% ahead of a warrior due to defensive stance and the armor cap. I have no doubt that shield block play such a significant role that it would overall mitigate 5% even in the end game (not counting crush/crits), but like I said before, shield block is hard to measure and thus I don't have any maths to back it up. But assuming 60% mitigation, 10% defensive stance and assuming shield block is around 5% mitigation, wouldn't that put warriors and druids on par when it comes to mitigation at least?
EDIT: Sorry for double post here but the forums were acting up 8(
As for a druid being hit by a crushing blow for as much as a warrior is hit by a normal blow, I was curious how much more AC the druid would have to have to achieve such a task.
Assumptions:
1) crushing blow does 150% damage of a normal blow
2) Armor mitigation is computed to AC/(AC+11960) against Lvl 73 mobs.
I spare you the math, and just present the result.
Druid armor = Warrior Armor * 1.5 + 5980
That means if a warrior has e.g. 10K AC, the druid would have to have 20980AC to be hit by a crushing blow as hard as the warrior by a normal blow.
If the warrior has 15000AC, the druid would need 28480 AC to achive that same task.
And so on.
And this is without taking def stance into account.
So I would put the myth to rest, that druids get hit by crushing blows no harder than warriors by normal blows. The needed AC gap is quite huge.
Note: If warrior AC exceeds 16744, the druid cannot have enough AC mitigation to ever get hit less by a crushing blow than warrior gets hit by normal blow in def stance.
Anyway...
I haven't played the expansion beta at all and thus I don't know whether 55% or 65% mitigation are common values for a warrior, but even with 60% mitigation, a druid can only be 5% ahead of a warrior due to defensive stance and the armor cap.
Actually this is just plain wrong.
60% mitigation from armor and 10% from defensive stance is not 70% total mitigation.
x*0.4*0.9 = 0.36x = 64% total mitigation.
Highest theorycrafted druid dodge using standard attainable raid buffs at level 70 as well as the best tanking gear available shows 24k armor, 18 or 19k HP and 55%+ buffed dodge for a feral druid which is 8-12% more avoidance than a warrior
Is this taking into account the added miss rate for the mob du to higher def values of the warrior?
Or is this just Druid_dodge compared to Warrior_dodge+Warrior_parry?
Blizzard has said flat out that Warriors are INTENDED to be the #1 choice for tanking. If anything threatens that fact, they will change it. Example: Druids just got a threat nerf
You will never be the #1 choice for tanking in WoW. Period. The developers of this game will not allow it. It completely negates the role of a prot warrior and they cannot make a class obsolete.
However, Blizzard does want to provide alternatives to Warriors as tanks so guilds dont sit around all day waiting for their Warriors to logon. But if both are logged on, a guild should choose a prot warrior over a feral druid to tank (disregarding any gear gap)
So, you want to explain why a Paladin should ever spec protection and pickup the tanking sets? Seems a bad idea to give a class a spec that makes them really gimp at everything else if they can't use it (that would include warriors make note).
Originally Posted by suicuique
@Zacara:
As for a druid being hit by a crushing blow for as much as a warrior is hit by a normal blow, I was curious how much more AC the druid would have to have to achieve such a task.
Assumptions:
1) crushing blow does 150% damage of a normal blow
2) Armor mitigation is computed to AC/(AC+11960) against Lvl 73 mobs.
I spare you the math, and just present the result.
Druid armor = Warrior Armor * 1.5 + 5980
That means if a warrior has e.g. 10K AC, the druid would have to have 20980AC to be hit by a crushing blow as hard as the warrior by a normal blow.
If the warrior has 15000AC, the druid would need 28480 AC to achive that same task.
One, verifying his math is correct (gave me something to do while watching my food cooking). Two, armor values are pretty close to the ones you are mentioning at equal gear levels but prolly not quite there. Three, defensive stance is the biggest reason why its not true. And fourth, this correlates with my own data on the matter from where my avg hit I was taking on a same mob as a 9/9 dreadnaught warrior ended up being slightly higher due to crushing blows (also my special version of Recap I've made shows that crushing blow mechanics have changed is complete BS and does reduce the amount Crushing Blows taken (was seeing ~3% Crushing Blows on our main tank on Prince Malchezaar who hits nice and slow allowing for Shield Block to remove most them).
Actually this is just plain wrong.
60% mitigation from armor and 10% from defensive stance is not 70% total mitigation.
x*0.4*0.9 = 0.36x = 64% total mitigation.
Obviously not, sorry... Just screwed up mathematically by blizzards annoying habit when it comes to addition with multiplication.
As for a druid being hit by a crushing blow for as much as a warrior is hit by a normal blow, I was curious how much more AC the druid would have to have to achieve such a task.
Assumptions:
1) crushing blow does 150% damage of a normal blow
2) Armor mitigation is computed to AC/(AC+11960) against Lvl 73 mobs.
I spare you the math, and just present the result.
Druid armor = Warrior Armor * 1.5 + 5980
That means if a warrior has e.g. 10K AC, the druid would have to have 20980AC to be hit by a crushing blow as hard as the warrior by a normal blow.
The original calculations for this were with T2 level gearing for both, in the early AQ40 days. From what I recall, assumed gearing through Huhuran and green dragons. Versus level 63 mobs with the old DR formula, druids had ~15500AC and Warriors 9300AC + defensive stance. Crushing hits for a bit more on a druid with that setup, and the argument was basically just to counter the "but we can stop crushing blows and you can't so you can't be a good tank" argument. Back then, there was still a widespread belief in the wow-general crowd that AC had 'diminishing returns' in the sense that it wasn't very good and +defense was all-important, thus druids stink way.
However, Warriors had significantly higher avoidance so it was ~ equal.... AQ40 gear gave warriors more avoidance and AC if they were smart enough to upgrade over T2 and give up a little +defense, druids got a lot more stam and some more AC but warriors pulled ahead in total mitigation for critable/crushable melee damage. T3 geared warriors went a big step past that, but the recent patches have changed it all and I'm not sure anyone has compared current AQ40/Naxx geared druids to warriors on level 63 mobs using the new DR formula and bear avoidance mechanics.
Q u o t e:
There are lots of people sayiing that Bear Druids or Paladins or both hold hate better than Warriors, period...Protection or non-Protection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If that is truly the case, Druids or Paladins or both will likely see changes to their threat mechanics. Warriors have always been intended to be a primary choice for tanking. That is not going to change, even with Druids and Paladins receiving tanking buffs. Yes, they weren't that good at it before and the devs do want to increase their viability in that role, but it should not be exceeding the capabilities of warriors. If it does, as I said, it'll probably get reigned in some
A key thing here:
"... intended to be a primary choice for tanking. "
Not THE primary choice. If its not clear to everyone already based on the gear available in TBC a taunt for paladins, and talent trees all three classes are intended to be tank viable, even in raiding situations. Warriors are the clear choice for situations with lots of magic damage. Druids look to be on par for physical damage tanking. Paladins are in-between and have some unique capabilities that will surely be handy.
I doubt most encounters will require any one of the three-- and in fact I suspect more complicated encounters will require more than one type of tank.
A warrior is a hybrid class, and can dps and tank and provide various important debuffs and utility. Yes blizzard will make sure the other classes don't make warriors obsolete. Don't expect them to make the other classes incompetent tanks and make tanking warrior exclusive again, even for raids.
I'd expect every TBC raiding guild to have at least one geared tank spec player of each class. I am looking forward to this for the sake of gear advancement and progression too: It is a LOT easier to gear up 3 tanks of different classes in a short period of time than 3 of the same class, due to less loot competition.
All I cant point you to is the posts by Tseric where he specifically says that Warriors are intended to be the #1 tank. If we cant trust blue to tell us what the developers are thinking who are we supposed to trust? People randomly posting here? Community managers are the frickin voice of the developers.
Q u o t e:
There are lots of people sayiing that Bear Druids or Paladins or both hold hate better than Warriors, period...Protection or non-Protection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If that is truly the case, Druids or Paladins or both will likely see changes to their threat mechanics. Warriors have always been intended to be a primary choice for tanking. That is not going to change, even with Druids and Paladins receiving tanking buffs. Yes, they weren't that good at it before and the devs do want to increase their viability in that role, but it should not be exceeding the capabilities of warriors. If it does, as I said, it'll probably get reigned in some
Since you seem to love Tseric so much, here is another quote from him:
Originally Posted by Tseric about PvE tanking
I can reaffirm this, but as far as I know the devs position is to have the warrior as the primary tanking choice. I don’t think that attitude has changed. However, they do want Pallys and Druids to be competitive choices. This will result in situations where a Pally or Druid might tank better for a particular situation or situations. This could result in more skilled players out performing lesser skilled ones. I would like it if Warriors wouldn’t feel threatened by this, but I imagine a lot of them are or will be and I’m gonna hear about it. Already am, really. If the devs stance has changed in this respect, I’ll let you know.
Let it sink in. If you are done: You still do not have to worry. Bears will not take away your precious MT spot if you are as skilled and geared as them. If not, tough luck. This is how it work for other classes after all. I know this sounds harsh but being a Warrior should not make you a tanking good if you are a crappy player. It should give you an edge most of the time but that's it.
Here is another one for you:
If (and this is a big if) Bears are indeed the better physical mitigation tanks, they will not be by a margin of 16%. Why did I use 16%? Because that is how much Warriors are better for magical DPS with D-Stance and Imp D-Stance. This is not even including Spell Reflect, Last Stand or Shield Wall, or pot usage in fights.
I'd expect every TBC raiding guild to have at least one geared tank spec player of each class. I am looking forward to this for the sake of gear advancement and progression too: It is a LOT easier to gear up 3 tanks of different classes in a short period of time than 3 of the same class, due to less loot competition.
While this is mostly true, tokens are a different can of worms. Warriors and Druids share the same token for some silly reason.
Highest theorycrafted druid dodge using standard attainable raid buffs at level 70 as well as the best tanking gear available shows 24k armor, 18 or 19k HP and 55%+ buffed dodge for a feral druid which is 8-12% more avoidance than a warrior
Is this taking into account the added miss rate for the mob du to higher def values of the warrior?
Or is this just Druid_dodge compared to Warrior_dodge+Warrior_parry?
This is just dodge vs. dodge+parry. However druids will in the same set be sporting an amazing 73 defense (alot for a druid) while warriors will be sporting 136. Total difference is 8% avoidance, warriors being at 55% including misses while druids will be at 63% or so. That means that out of 100 hits (not count block, but neither armor though for the druid), the warrior will take 14.5% more hits than the druid, or 14.5% more damage before armor and shield block. Druid set sporting 73 defense and 33 resilience as well as Survival of the Fittest will be doing just as well vs. crits as the warrior, so its actually 14.5% more damage taken by warriors through avoidance alone + more armor for druid vs. the ability to remove crushing blows + the ability to block some damage.
Seeing as how druids get substantially less out of +defense items than warriors, does anyone foresee guilds choosing to restrict those to warriors/paladins? Presumably druid tanking gear will be agi/dodge/resilience-based?
I think someone did the math and showed that Defense is better than Resilience item points wise even though Druids cannot parry nor block. Resilience has the issue of having it's use spread between crit chance reduction and crit damage reduction but that is really irrelevant in PvE where you want crit immunity. Also, unlike in live where not being crit immune is not a big deal, 5k hits critting for 10k in Heroics IS a big problem (I have read the number sometime ago about a Heroic Instance but I am not 100% sure if I remember it correctly.)
Also, the issue of restricting +Def gear is only a valid concern for Necklaces, Rings, Cloaks and Trinkets anway. And the +Def items Druid choose usually are high on AC to begin with so they would have chosen those items anyway. Only exception I can think of are the trinkets because trinket itemization is just shitty for Druid tanks.
Actually this is just plain wrong.
60% mitigation from armor and 10% from defensive stance is not 70% total mitigation.
x*0.4*0.9 = 0.36x = 64% total mitigation.
Obviously not, sorry... Just screwed up mathematically by blizzards annoying habit when it comes to addition with multiplication.
If defensive stance stacked additively then when you reached enough armor for 75% mitigation you would end up with 85% mitigation. 1/0.25=4 damage 1/0.15=6.66 damage a increase in damage taken before dying of 66% which is excessive to say the least.
Seeing as how druids get substantially less out of +defense items than warriors, does anyone foresee guilds choosing to restrict those to warriors/paladins? Presumably druid tanking gear will be agi/dodge/resilience-based?
If druids in the end is the tank with most melee damage mitigation i doubt it. Why would you restrict items from a class that has the potential to surpass another class with the said items, even if he gains less from these items? If a druids total performance ends above, any guild would be foolish to restrict them from these items.
Its like restricting stamina gear from warriors because druids gain 50% more HP out of Stamina. In the end its stupid,
All I cant point you to is the posts by Tseric where he specifically says that Warriors are intended to be the #1 tank. If we cant trust blue to tell us what the developers are thinking who are we supposed to trust? People randomly posting here? Community managers are the frickin voice of the developers.
A lot of people posting here don't do so randomly. They actualy do so carefully; trying their best to give unbiased objective information. In many ways the information provided by some of the people posting here is much much better than what we recieve from the CMs.
Developers have their own voices, and we see them from time to time and they provide useful information. CMs sometimes serve to provide us this information, but often don't.
I don't think competent players are in the habit of ignoring empirical evidence in favour of CM opinions or speculations in determining what the most effective way it is for them to play the game.
Seeing as how druids get substantially less out of +defense items than warriors, does anyone foresee guilds choosing to restrict those to warriors/paladins? Presumably druid tanking gear will be agi/dodge/resilience-based?
It sure as hell isn't resilence based. Resilence is way worst than Defense for druids. Heh basically Resilence costs 2/3's as much as Defense does for 1% crit reduction while not getting 1% miss/dodge also.
Ironically, Agility has become one of the best tanking stats. Its certainly better than dodge, defense and resilience, since at 70, 14.x Agi = 1% Dodge, whereas 18.9 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge. This doesn't even take into account the +crit% and armor Agility gives.
01/10/07, 10:58 AM
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