Role of Fury in TBC - Page 2

Hamilburg · 01/05/07, 5:54 PM

Originally Posted by Jekar

I think the real issue is that a Prot Warrior with Fury gear can do 90% of Fury damage and then swap to tanking gear for the next fight and be twice the tank that a Fury Warrior is.

Source? Because if this was a thread about hybrid tanking, those are not the sorts of numbers that are getting thrown about.

Andrise · 01/05/07, 5:55 PM

If you're doing 90% of the damage of your Fury warriors with a 41 prot spec in Fury gear, then your fury warriors suck.

Grymm · 01/05/07, 5:59 PM

I think the important numbers are 230.6 and 270. If I remember correctly, those are the denominators of the first term of the rage generation algorythm. The second term does not change. 270 is a 17.1% increase. If warrior white dps increases 17.1% from 60 to 70, rage generation stays the same. 80 dps one handers seem to be the equivalent to GM one handers now (~60 dps) but are actually only a small tip of the iceberg that will be level 70 (95+ dps one handers). That's already a weapon DPS upgrade of 33.3%. I think AP will increase by more than 17.1% as well. The biggest thing holding fury dps back is the lesser rage you generate now at 60. At 70, having scaled faster than the rage formula, you will generate more rage. Should you find yourself with a 95 dps one hander, you will have a ton more rage if even 50% less extra rage then you had before the nerf. More rage is more DPS. Warriors still scale faster than any other class with gear. We merely are put back by a margin right now so that we do not break the system at 70. I went 2 hand fury for 2 weeks before the patch and, with mediocre gear (~AQ40 level), I put up insane unbuffed dps. I was actually mixing in cleaves with my 2-hander to chew up some of the extra rage.

Geo · 01/05/07, 7:09 PM

This is the real truth of rage at level 70:

The rage you are seeing now is going to be the rage you see in top giered level 70 epics.

I speak the truth but if you want proof here is some empirical evidence from the EU-WoW boards.

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....sid=1&pageNo=1

ill quote the 2 posts that really stand out

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:

Today i was a bit bored, so i went to Uldaman and decided that i'll take a look, how our rage generation works now.

I used Crul'shorukh, Edge of Chaos (62.8 dps, 2.30 speed, 101-188 damage) - second best dps Axe ingame (rare drop from Nefarian) and compared it to ... my hand (no weapon).

First i tested rage generation with no weapon equipped (Damage stats: 181-182 dmg, 2.0 speed, 90.6 dps) against some 43 lvl elite (Shadow Relic Hunter afair). I generated roughly 5 rage per hit.

Then i equipped Crul'shorukh, Edge of Chaos in my MH slot (Damage stats: 314-402 dmg, 2.3 speed, 155.5 dps). I generated roughly 7 rage per hit. While flurry it dropped to 6 rage per hit.

Then i equipped Crul'shorukh, Edge of Chaos in my OH slot. I generated 4 rage per hit.

So:
1. MH: Crul'shorukh, Edge of Chaos - 7 rage per hit
2. MH: Crul'shorukh, Edge of Chaos (Flurried) - 6 rage per hit
3. MH: No weapon - 5 rage per hit
4. OH: Crul'shorukh, Edge of Chaos - 4 rage per hit

I stopped testing because it was clearly too much for me.

Few facts:
1. Second best Axe ingame gives 2 rage more (per hit) than no weapon ! (and i bet that if i had some 2.00 speed MH, even 90 dps, then my rage gained per hit would be something around 6-7 rage pare hit). And it gives this rage just because it's 2.30 speed and not 2.00, not just it has imba dps, stats, very rare etc.

2. using dual wield you have pretty much chance, that Flurry proc will overall give you less rage than without flurry at all. It's just one random dodge, parry, miss while flurried an result is clear: less rage. So if we'll fight vs some melee in pvp for example then we have something like 5 % (dodge), 5 % (parry), 0-24 % (miss ratio) to get less rage while flurry, than without flurry. great change

3. No matter what weapon you'll put into your OH slot, it'll generate less rage than your unarmed Main Hand

Doesnt the difference between rage gained with no weapon, and axe weapon looks ... way to flat?
Especially that we start with 0 rage and we need this rage, to start realising even simpliest tactic, cos otherwise almost all abilities except Charge, Bloodrage, and 30min abilities are inactive.

Well, i must say that this test really helped me. It helped me to understand that playing a warrior, gearing him for 2 years, gaining experience was pointless cos it's already broken. Can we at least know who invented such great warrior mechanism (/sarcasm) ? And no, im not happy that you'll look into rage generation soon. Last time when look at it, it ended like this. Maybe better dont look at it at all, it could could really help me quit (it's hard to quit when you're pretty much addicted)

Remember good old days before 2.0 patch cos it was the only moment where we very actually fun (at least as fury warrior i can say that).

ps. tested it having about 1300 AP or something.
ps. probably i'll do some tests under buffs later or tomorrow
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:

very good post. i wished more people did testing, and let their results be known..

i wrote a post about the math of Attack power here:
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....714616&sid=1#9

the result is, that it takes an increase of 261 AP on level 60 to increase your rage generation by 1!
(with a 3.8 sec weapon. 310 AP on level 70)

the math on the weapon damage goes like this:

average weapon damage (AWD): (i ignore the rest of the formula, as weapons speed and attack power are supposed to be constant for this calculation)
((AWD/230.6)*7.5)/2

you need to increase your average weapon damage by 61.5 to generate 1 (one) extra point of rage. (weapon with same speed. AP stays constant)

so with a slow 2hander (3.8 sec), every DPS increase by 16.2 will give you an extra point of rage.

so from TuF (61 dps)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40529
to HWM (77.4 dps)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38035
1 (one) rage
to MoM (95.3 dps)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=53961
1 (one) rage
to DT (114.6 dps)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=54289
slightly more than 1 (one) rage

wow, i m going to generate (nearly) 4 extra rage per hit. only 8 hits, and i m going to be able to use an extra MS! that s every 30 seconds! (well, fights WILL last longer in BC, hopefully..)

simple truth is, warriors don t scale any better than anyone else any longer. this will be very hard to tell the other classes. (llok how difficult it is to destroy the "warriors are overpowered in PvP"- myth..)

Geo · 01/05/07, 7:13 PM

So to sum up what i just posted:

You will see at most 4 more rage per swing going from a TuF @ level 60 to a 114 dps weapon @ level 70

Regardless of what weapon you have equipped in your offhand an unarmed mainhand hit will generate more rage

Rage basically doesnt scale at all with gear anymore and has become basically red energy based on your weapon swing.

So basically this is what you are looking forward to in BC.

(this isnt a doom and gloom post just some evidence so people dont get their hopes up TOO much but it is looking rather dim :( )

Vindicta · 01/05/07, 8:17 PM

2H Fury will never be what it once was unless they make a big change to the normalisation, however rage generation goes beyond just your weapon. The future of fury lies in Dual Wield only and I think that while it takes longer and more gear to scale, it eventually will exceed these low expectations. Once you have fury warriors with close to 5.5k Raid buffed AP, ~40% Raid buffed Crit and 15-20% CHT, they will be absolute beasts. Whether this scaling will be lower or higher compared to other classes, only time will tell. Gear has always scaled better for warriors and rogues than casters and I think a similar trend will occur once both parties are well geared.

◊ Kalman · 01/05/07, 8:22 PM

Originally Posted by Geo

So to sum up what i just posted:

You will see at most 4 more rage per swing going from a TuF @ level 60 to a 114 dps weapon @ level 70

Regardless of what weapon you have equipped in your offhand an unarmed mainhand hit will generate more rage

Rage basically doesnt scale at all with gear anymore and has become basically red energy based on your weapon swing.

So basically this is what you are looking forward to in BC.

(this isnt a doom and gloom post just some evidence so people dont get their hopes up TOO much but it is looking rather dim :( )

Yeah. Having a system based on energy and being able to offtank must suck *horribly*. Where's that rolleyes emote?

It sounds to me like DPS warriors are being converted into what they should have been from the start - decent, but not the best, DPS with the capability to act as an offtank as well as providing useful buffs (BS) and debuffs (TC, Sunder, Dem).

Geo · 01/05/07, 8:26 PM

Originally Posted by Vindicta

2H Fury will never be what it once was unless they make a big change to the normalisation, however rage generation goes beyond just your weapon. The future of fury lies in Dual Wield only and I think that while it takes longer and more gear to scale, it eventually will exceed these low expectations. Once you have fury warriors with close to 5.5k Raid buffed AP, ~40% Raid buffed Crit and 15-20% CHT, they will be absolute beasts. Whether this scaling will be lower or higher compared to other classes, only time will tell. Gear has always scaled better for warriors and rogues than casters and I think a similar trend will occur once both parties are well geared.

Read what i posted above you and your tune will change

the newest myth that has been busted is that warriors scale best with gear. Wrong and wrong with rage normalization.

Warriors now scale linearly just like rogues but unlike rogues our damage abilities are based around cooldowns where rogues are not

Moogul · 01/05/07, 8:35 PM

Is it me, or is 4 extra rage PER HIT a huge increase in rage generation? Why are people saying 'oh noes only 4 more rage per hit going from TUF to Epic TBC 2h'. To me that seems awesome.

I think Fury will be very good once the gear starts increasing and people start buffing up loads. At 2ap per strength, Warriors benefit very well from +str buffs, and bloodthirst converts ap to damage better than anything else in the game (as far as I know, anyway). With things like BoM, SoE, MotW, Unleashed Rage, Str pots/food/consumeables etc. Warriors will be putting out ridiculous figures. Even with WF the damage will be competitive, and with WF it'll be near top spot again I expect.

Originally Posted by emth

With the changes to rage and endless rage being placed where it is I feel Fury has lost it's pvp viability as well - these combined are exactly why i've rerolled.

Sad to hear that, I hope you'll change your mind - don't give up now just on hearsay. What are you rerolling to anyway?

marty · 01/05/07, 8:36 PM

Originally Posted by Geo

Warriors now scale linearly just like rogues but unlike rogues our damage abilities are based around cooldowns where rogues are not

I don't want to cause too much trouble, but I'd argue that energy is a built in ability timer. I can't Backstab more than once every 6 seconds unless I use Tea.

◊ Kalman · 01/05/07, 8:37 PM

Originally Posted by Geo

Originally Posted by Vindicta

2H Fury will never be what it once was unless they make a big change to the normalisation, however rage generation goes beyond just your weapon. The future of fury lies in Dual Wield only and I think that while it takes longer and more gear to scale, it eventually will exceed these low expectations. Once you have fury warriors with close to 5.5k Raid buffed AP, ~40% Raid buffed Crit and 15-20% CHT, they will be absolute beasts. Whether this scaling will be lower or higher compared to other classes, only time will tell. Gear has always scaled better for warriors and rogues than casters and I think a similar trend will occur once both parties are well geared.

Read what i posted above you and your tune will change

the newest myth that has been busted is that warriors scale best with gear. Wrong and wrong with rage normalization.

Warriors now scale linearly just like rogues but unlike rogues our damage abilities are based around cooldowns where rogues are not

Energy is an implied cooldown, you realize. It's only in PvP that the lack of cooldown makes any difference at all; in PvE, time/6 ~= #backstabs for a combat dagger rogue (accounting for tea and AR changes it a little, of course).

*If* warrior rage is more or less non-scaling with gear now, they'll scale very similarly to rogues; in both cases, primary damage abilities are essentially cooldown-limited. In one case strictly by cooldowns, in the other case by energy regeneration constraints.

ildon · 01/05/07, 8:37 PM

Originally Posted by Demi9OD

That's a nice sunder stack on Blackheart (#1 pet peeve about Fury Warriors)

I'm always stuck stacking sunder and keeping demo shout up. :/

And I still get top 5 dps...

I don't know if it's my playstyle or what, but I really am not having any problems so far, and the main problem I forsee at 70 is simply the lack of new abilities keeping me interested.

Geo · 01/05/07, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Geo

So to sum up what i just posted:

You will see at most 4 more rage per swing going from a TuF @ level 60 to a 114 dps weapon @ level 70

Regardless of what weapon you have equipped in your offhand an unarmed mainhand hit will generate more rage

Rage basically doesnt scale at all with gear anymore and has become basically red energy based on your weapon swing.

So basically this is what you are looking forward to in BC.

(this isnt a doom and gloom post just some evidence so people dont get their hopes up TOO much but it is looking rather dim :( )

Yeah. Having a system based on energy and being able to offtank must suck *horribly*. Where's that rolleyes emote?

It sounds to me like DPS warriors are being converted into what they should have been from the start - decent, but not the best, DPS with the capability to act as an offtank as well as providing useful buffs (BS) and debuffs (TC, Sunder, Dem).

With the way threat mechanics are working out warriors that dont have at least the 3 points in defiance no warrior will be offtanking because those jobs will be held by our new OTs of druids and pallies.

You jack PVE damage from warriors the whole fury tree becomes detrimental and has no use in PVE or PVP

stealth edit: Ot also takes 300+ attack power to generate 1 more point of rage per hit at level 70 for those curious to how well rage does scale

Jekar · 01/05/07, 9:03 PM

Originally Posted by Hamilburg

Originally Posted by Jekar

I think the real issue is that a Prot Warrior with Fury gear can do 90% of Fury damage and then swap to tanking gear for the next fight and be twice the tank that a Fury Warrior is.

Source? Because if this was a thread about hybrid tanking, those are not the sorts of numbers that are getting thrown about.

Source would be my damage meter. Now we aren't progressed all the way through Naxx and I know Fury continues to get large boosts from some of that gear. I was Fury until the 2.0 patch, and my gear lags slightly behind our top Fury Warriors.

With Windfury, and consumeables (Mongoose, Desert Dumplings, Firewater, Juju Power, Elemental Sharpening Stone offhand), I did 96,000 to Maexanna during our last kill, and I was only behind a couple of the Mages on the damage meters.

On pure DPS races like Razuvious, Ebonroc, Flamegor, I would typically lag just behind the Fury Warriors.

Even the Theorycraft supports it if you use the same gear.

Devastate = .5 weapon damage + 25*5

Which actually does a fair bit more damage than Bloodthirst on the same cycle.

Look at the damage enhancing talents by build (these are obviously rough numbers so don't yell at me too much):

Fury:

Cruelty ~5% overall
Improved Battleshout ~60 attack power
Improved Dual Wield ~4%
Flurry ~ 12%
Precision ~1.5%
Improved Berserk Stance ~200 attack power
Rampage ~200 attack power

Prot:

Cruelty ~5% overall
One Hand Weapon Specialization ~10%
Vitality ~100 attack power

Fury: ~360 attack power advantage (300 if the prot Warrior is grouped with a Fury) and around 7% more damage from talents. I'm using intelligent guesses instead of crunching the numbers here, but say that 360 attack power is another 10% damage. So the Fury Warrior is doing about 18% more damage on any given attack.

That just leaves the ability cycle. Fury (if they have the rage generation to support it; and I think the people we are argueing about all do) is something like:

Time = 0
Bloodthirst
Whirlwind
Bloodthirst
Whirlwind
Bloodthirst
Time = 12 seconds
Rage used: 140

Now Fury requires slightly more rage to keep Rampage up as well, but I'll figure that is more than negated by ~20% additional rage generated by flurry.

Prot looks like this:

Whirlwind
Devastate
Devastate
Devastate
Devastate
Devastate
Devastate
Whirlwind
Devastate
Time = 12 seconds
Rage Used: 128

The prot cycle is actually generateing more yellow damage than Fury by a fair bit. Devastate hits at least half as hard as Bloodthirst with a good weapon, and we get to use it a whole more than twice as much (only 7 times to 3 in the model, but as you extend it out to longer times you are really using about 2.5 Devastates per Bloodthirst).

Bottom line is the damage is close. If you don't believe me, cough up some gold and try it youself for a night.

For the record my gear isn't great, I don't have a DFT, and I'm using a Doom's Edge offhand. I have 13% + hit in my raiding gear and about 27% crit before consumeables.

Shik · 01/05/07, 9:12 PM

It depends on what you are offtanking.

A pure no-prot DPS warrior won't be doing the job in raids, Feral druids will likely do it better. A Fury warrior with toughness and ideally imp shield block will do fine.

Offtanking usually does not require massive threat generation, just enough to keep the mob occupied until the raid gets around to killing it. Its still possible to create a DPS warrior that brings that capability to the raid, you just have to think about it a little.

My spec for endgame BC: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=LVZVEzm0xoVuVociLo

Demo-shout over DW spec is largely because I'm offhanding TF, although I'm dying to see someone test the rage gen numbers of TF offhanding with and without 5/5 in the talent, although it does make life significantly easier on the MT, he won't have the global cooldown to spare for keeping demoshout up constantly.

I can tank and hold anything I need to until the raid gets to it.

Geo · 01/05/07, 9:25 PM

Originally Posted by Shik

It depends on what you are offtanking.

A pure no-prot DPS warrior won't be doing the job in raids, Feral druids will likely do it better. A Fury warrior with toughness and ideally imp shield block will do fine.

Offtanking usually does not require massive threat generation, just enough to keep the mob occupied until the raid gets around to killing it. Its still possible to create a DPS warrior that brings that capability to the raid, you just have to think about it a little.

My spec for endgame BC: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=LVZVEzm0xoVuVociLo

Demo-shout over DW spec is largely because I'm offhanding TF, although I'm dying to see someone test the rage gen numbers of TF offhanding with and without 5/5 in the talent, although it does make life significantly easier on the MT, he won't have the global cooldown to spare for keeping demoshout up constantly.

I can tank and hold anything I need to until the raid gets to it.

Honestly im thinking now the only point of DW spec is only to increase offhand damage and thats abut it. It has little bearing left on rage generaton with the rage normalization. For 5 points spent its also only about a 3% dps increase of total dps. Quite lackluster if you ask me since it has almost no bearing on rage gen

◊ Kalman · 01/05/07, 9:26 PM

Originally Posted by Geo

With the way threat mechanics are working out warriors that dont have at least the 3 points in defiance no warrior will be offtanking because those jobs will be held by our new OTs of druids and pallies.

If druids and paladins don't pick up their respective threat talents, they won't be any better offtanks than fury warriors. And if they do pick up their tanking talents, they deserve to be better OTs than warriors who didn't pick them up.

And it doesn't sound like (nor, from my experience on test, does it seem like) warrior PvE damage is horrible when specced for it. They just won't be capable of topping the meters anymore. Which is hardly a reason not to take one in a DPS/OT role, given that paladins specced for DPS/OT can't top meters either.

Feral druids seem a bit too good right now, and hopefully that'll be corrected.

Geo · 01/05/07, 9:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Geo

With the way threat mechanics are working out warriors that dont have at least the 3 points in defiance no warrior will be offtanking because those jobs will be held by our new OTs of druids and pallies.

If druids and paladins don't pick up their respective threat talents, they won't be any better offtanks than fury warriors. And if they do pick up their tanking talents, they deserve to be better OTs than warriors who didn't pick them up.

And it doesn't sound like (nor, from my experience on test, does it seem like) warrior PvE damage is horrible when specced for it. They just won't be capable of topping the meters anymore. Which is hardly a reason not to take one in a DPS/OT role, given that paladins specced for DPS/OT can't top meters either.

Feral druids seem a bit too good right now, and hopefully that'll be corrected.

Ok follow some logic here. and this is with level 70 in mind

Fury is garbage in PVP. Most will agree with this statement

Fury is now worse then a pally/druid tanking when hybrids are specced for it (hybrids are even close to prot spec tanking)

Fury now not capable of topping damage meters

What may i ask is fury good for then? See the problem?

So fury went from ok tanking ok PVP great damage to worse tanking then hybrids, worse pvp and mediocre damage.

Seems a little off balance dont you think?

edit: we can have a pissing contest about this all night but i really dont want to get into it. Both of us would start slinging theory craft like it was feces from monkeys and in the end it doesnt solve anything. But scalability was the ONE thing warriors had going for them. A rweason to strive and get epiucs and get the best gear and that has shifted into a red herring with rage normalization and the fact that rage doesnt scale

◊ Kalman · 01/05/07, 9:57 PM

Originally Posted by Geo

Ok follow some logic here. and this is with level 70 in mind

Fury is garbage in PVP. Most will agree with this statement

Fury is now worse then a pally/druid tanking when hybrids are specced for it (hybrids are even close to prot spec tanking)

Fury now not capable of topping damage meters

What may i ask is fury good for then? See the problem?

So fury went from ok tanking ok PVP great damage to worse tanking then hybrids, worse pvp and mediocre damage.

Seems a little off balance dont you think?

Nope.

Fury is exactly as good at offtanking as a hybrid not specced for tanking. Seems fair to me.

Fury seems to be capable of roughly equivalent damage to a paladin or druid specced for damage. Seems fair to me.

The only remotely questionable part I can find is that a paladin or druid healing specced is probably capable of healing better than fury is capable of dealing damage in comparison to primary classes in those regards, while still being comparable offtanks to one another.

Yes, fury (and by extension the DPS warrior as a specialized role) is worse off in the expansion pack than it is in live. But I can only see this as a good thing.

edit: And no, scalability was not the thing warriors had going for them. The thing warriors had going for them was being able to excel in two seperate roles with nothing more than a gear swap and occasionally a spec swap; they had options *completely* unavailable to any other class. No other class could be top of the pops in two seperate roles. They might be able to compare, but they couldn't excel and exceed. Warriors could. *That* is what they had going for them, not some mythical scalability.

ildon · 01/05/07, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Geo

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Geo

With the way threat mechanics are working out warriors that dont have at least the 3 points in defiance no warrior will be offtanking because those jobs will be held by our new OTs of druids and pallies.

If druids and paladins don't pick up their respective threat talents, they won't be any better offtanks than fury warriors. And if they do pick up their tanking talents, they deserve to be better OTs than warriors who didn't pick them up.

And it doesn't sound like (nor, from my experience on test, does it seem like) warrior PvE damage is horrible when specced for it. They just won't be capable of topping the meters anymore. Which is hardly a reason not to take one in a DPS/OT role, given that paladins specced for DPS/OT can't top meters either.

Feral druids seem a bit too good right now, and hopefully that'll be corrected.

Ok follow some logic here. and this is with level 70 in mind

Fury is garbage in PVP. Most will agree with this statement

I won't. It's not as good as arms, but it's far from "garbage".

Fury is now worse then a pally/druid tanking when hybrids are specced for it (hybrids are even close to prot spec tanking)

As it should be. Any class specced for tanking should out tank any class that's not specced for tanking (assuming identical skill and generic tank and spank).

Fury now not capable of topping damage meters

You mean in a 40 man raid you won't have 4 warriors in the top 8 DPS? Out of ~5 DPS classes? Heaven forbid. Fury DPS is still very competitive, and a skilled fury warrior will out DPS any other DPS class that's unskilled or lazy.

What may i ask is fury good for then? See the problem?

So fury went from ok tanking ok PVP great damage to worse tanking then hybrids, worse pvp and mediocre damage.

Seems a little off balance dont you think?

It went from being an infinitely scaling DPS role that would win 100% of the time in a threatless environment to having to actually compete with other DPS classes, beating most hybrids that spec for DPS, and generally being slightly below classes who have zero spec options other than DPS.

I think fury warrior is now where it belongs and still brings a strong contribution to a raid when played by a skilled palyer.

Shik · 01/05/07, 10:12 PM

Thats simply too many assumptions Geo, you can't make an argument based on logic from an unproven premise.

My personal view is MS wins for pvp, but thats an argument for WoW forums, there is really nothing new added to it in the last 2 years.

Based on what I can see from the talent trees, I'd rather have a Feral druid or a Fury/Prot hybrid than a Prot Paladin... the first 2 bring more to groups and have high DPS when not tanking. Zomg warriors are hybrids too :-)

I simply don't believe you can judge geared raid warrior DPS yet. There is a small sample of DPS warriors in BC, they aren't geared to the extent they will be. Every class scales with gear, but they don't necessarily do so at the same rate.

Scorned · 01/05/07, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Fury is exactly as good at offtanking as a hybrid not specced for tanking. Seems fair to me.

Fury seems to be capable of roughly equivalent damage to a paladin or druid specced for damage. Seems fair to me.

I'm not going to enter the debate on whether warriors have been "over-nerfed", since I'd rather reserve judgement until level 70 when I can see first-hand. But honestly, I can't follow your logic on the above summation. If fury warriors' tanking ability is significantly outclassed by say, feral druids, and fury doesn't hold a DPS advantage, then don't hybrid classes simply become a better choice for raids?

The multitude of extra tools that hybrids bring to the table (innervates, rebirths, debuff removal, blessings, totems, etc.), along with their ability to heal, means that the class situation is simply broken if fury warriors do not hold some sort of general advantage in either of their given roles.

To use an unlikely example... if it were to turn out that enhancement shamans can somehow offer the same sort of sustained DPS and threat control in a raid environment as rogues, would you consider that balanced? I certainly wouldn't. "Pure" classes should not be beaten in their primary role by hybrids, or else they become obsolete. It's the same reason why the fury warrior nerf was justified, but to take it to this supposed extreme simply punishes a new class instead.

Maratai · 01/06/07, 1:41 AM

Originally Posted by Demi9OD

That's a nice sunder stack on Blackheart (#1 pet peeve about Fury Warriors)

Right. Because its a bear tank = no sunders.

Ashnod · 01/06/07, 1:52 AM

Originally Posted by Maratai

Originally Posted by Demi9OD

That's a nice sunder stack on Blackheart (#1 pet peeve about Fury Warriors)

Right. Because its a bear tank = no sunders.

..And because the warriors on DPS can sunder to increase overall raid DPS.

Liar · 01/06/07, 2:02 AM

Originally Posted by Scorned

Originally Posted by Kalman

Fury is exactly as good at offtanking as a hybrid not specced for tanking. Seems fair to me.

Fury seems to be capable of roughly equivalent damage to a paladin or druid specced for damage. Seems fair to me.

I'm not going to enter the debate on whether warriors have been "over-nerfed", since I'd rather reserve judgement until level 70 when I can see first-hand. But honestly, I can't follow your logic on the above summation. If fury warriors' tanking ability is significantly outclassed by say, feral druids, and fury doesn't hold a DPS advantage, then don't hybrid classes simply become a better choice for raids?

The multitude of extra tools that hybrids bring to the table (innervates, rebirths, debuff removal, blessings, totems, etc.), along with their ability to heal, means that the class situation is simply broken if fury warriors do not hold some sort of general advantage in either of their given roles.

To use an unlikely example... if it were to turn out that enhancement shamans can somehow offer the same sort of sustained DPS and threat control in a raid environment as rogues, would you consider that balanced? I certainly wouldn't. "Pure" classes should not be beaten in their primary role by hybrids, or else they become obsolete. It's the same reason why the fury warrior nerf was justified, but to take it to this supposed extreme simply punishes a new class instead.

I didn't get the last part. You said hybrids should not beat the pure classes. But why do you think it's bad if Warriors do the same DPS as Feral Druids and Ret Paladins when all of them are hybrids?
While I would like to see Fury Warriors doing better DPS than Feral Druids or Ret Paladins your reasoning of "hybrids should not beat pure classes" fails. My reasoning would be the same you mentioned in your second paragraph: The fact that Fury Warriors bring less utility to the raid. Mind you, Improved Demo is powerful and so is Piercing Howl and Improved BS but the Warrior is competing against a class that you can easily stack (Paladins) and another with Rebirth and Innervate. That is why they should make up for that with higher DPS but how much more I don't know. Remember that the worth of an off spec Druid/Paladin diminishes after the first one (the core utility independent of spec is still there though).

But all of this is just speculation. Give me a Fury Warrior with Improved Demo and he will get a guaranteed raid spot from me.