Every raid will want improved demoralizing shout and improved thunder clap. While you can technically have a prot warrior provide these, it's better for a second warrior to do so. Beyond that, you're just another DPS class but you have battle shout, so even if you're not quite at rogue DPS, raid dps still goes up versus adding another rogue or similar dps class.

I think the bigger question is, if you only have one DPS warrior, will your overall raid DPS be higher with an arms spec providing the 4% debuff, or with fury. Naturally it depends on how many physical damage dealers you have but there's likely a breakpoint somewhere.

I really don't see any reason to doubt the viability of Fury Warriors for raiding in TBC. DPS output post 2.0 is still good, as the high lvl fury talents are pretty nice. Going to level 70 won't add a huge amount of dps (17/4x isn't *that* much better than current available heavy fury specs available at 60).

But we will be able to add a decent amount of utility. I'll probably end up with a bulid along the lines of:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=pV0cZVxzmtxoVuVocbt
- Will do similar dps to a full 17/4x spec, but the addition of toughness, last stand, 8 def & I can keep all the nice debuff talents (which appear to have been given a nice boost in TBC).

Arms Warriors are in a worse position imho. There is no point bringing more than 1 per raid, Rage Normalisation sets 'expected' dmg for a 2h is the same as a MH (therefore it hurts 2h warriors a lot more than DW), they can't get flurry (one of the best PvE DPS talents available) and still take blood frenzy & TM. I've always preferred the play style of MS/Arms, but I'll almost certainly be sticking with Fury in light of a the 2.0 changes.

Considering Feral Druids are putting out excellent DPS at 70, rogues will undoubtably have 2-3 spots, hunters are massively more useful than pre 2.0 both in damage and utility, and enchancement Shaman are also putting out respectable damage (as well as stacking very well in a group with a feral druid, warrior, hunter and rogue), I can't believe that Fury can compete with arms for overall benefit considering an arms warrior can fit imp demo shout, imp thunderclap, and all the DPS talents he wants into a build easily - where as Fury ideally skips imp demo shout for unbridled wrath. So much in TBC is about synergising new abilities and Fury offers nothing new.

That's not even mentioning the 4% bonus affecting the MT or any Paladins.

With the changes to rage and endless rage being placed where it is I feel Fury has lost it's pvp viability as well - these combined are exactly why i've rerolled.

Although being a mage and finding out how much damage warlocks can do at 70 while maintaining godlike pvp status (avec pet) is just as depressing.

Overall: Blood Frenzy is in the wrong tree, and there is no reason to bring more than 2 warriors to a raid in an optimal group setup (from a pure DPS perspective).

Considering that there's only 25 raid slots, and 9 classes, I should hope that for the most part there is no realistic reason to need to bring more than 1 of a particularly specced class to a raid.

If encounters ever require more than 1 class of a particular spec, it's going to take an extra slot from someone else.

Even now, you couldn't have one of every class/talent focus with 9 classes and 25 raid slots even if you wanted to.

I don't know if it's fixed, but I was having trouble getting sunder to show stack numbers recently and going back to the old days of mousing over the debuff. I thought it was a bug, but maybe not.

EDIT: Re: Below - yeah, you're right. At first glance I thought I saw SA, but now I don't.

I think he's referring to the complete lack of :)

I think the real issue is that a Prot Warrior with Fury gear can do 90% of Fury damage and then swap to tanking gear for the next fight and be twice the tank that a Fury Warrior is.

I've been raiding with 5/5/41 build since 2.0 and and at least at level 60 on fights where I DPS, I don't pull any more aggro than Fury Warriors, and in several cases have flat out beaten them on DPS. Prot is far more flexible in 2.0, just not as good for soloing.

Fury needs help to be viable, I think that's the message that Blizzard and everyone else needs to get. While they are getting it, spec Prot or Arms.

Source? Because if this was a thread about hybrid tanking, those are not the sorts of numbers that are getting thrown about.

If you're doing 90% of the damage of your Fury warriors with a 41 prot spec in Fury gear, then your fury warriors suck.

I think the important numbers are 230.6 and 270. If I remember correctly, those are the denominators of the first term of the rage generation algorythm. The second term does not change. 270 is a 17.1% increase. If warrior white dps increases 17.1% from 60 to 70, rage generation stays the same. 80 dps one handers seem to be the equivalent to GM one handers now (~60 dps) but are actually only a small tip of the iceberg that will be level 70 (95+ dps one handers). That's already a weapon DPS upgrade of 33.3%. I think AP will increase by more than 17.1% as well. The biggest thing holding fury dps back is the lesser rage you generate now at 60. At 70, having scaled faster than the rage formula, you will generate more rage. Should you find yourself with a 95 dps one hander, you will have a ton more rage if even 50% less extra rage then you had before the nerf. More rage is more DPS. Warriors still scale faster than any other class with gear. We merely are put back by a margin right now so that we do not break the system at 70. I went 2 hand fury for 2 weeks before the patch and, with mediocre gear (~AQ40 level), I put up insane unbuffed dps. I was actually mixing in cleaves with my 2-hander to chew up some of the extra rage.

So to sum up what i just posted:

You will see at most 4 more rage per swing going from a TuF @ level 60 to a 114 dps weapon @ level 70

Regardless of what weapon you have equipped in your offhand an unarmed mainhand hit will generate more rage

Rage basically doesnt scale at all with gear anymore and has become basically red energy based on your weapon swing.

So basically this is what you are looking forward to in BC.



(this isnt a doom and gloom post just some evidence so people dont get their hopes up TOO much but it is looking rather dim :( )