I cannot stress this point strongly enough, even if you dont read anything else in this thread - read & reread this paragraph, it's extremely correct.

I agree to some extent funball. But on the other hand, and speaking as a hybrid, would it be fair for some classes to get 3 sets in the same amount of time as other take to get 1?

I think the problem was exacerbated pre-expansion by the fact that hybrids had 1 role in raids (for warriors it was tanking, everyone else it was healing) while post-expansion it's looking as though a hybrid's role is based on how he gears himself and how he is specced. So you can gear yourself to fit your "role" in the same time a warlock can. And assuming a relatively even distribution of classes on your raids and equal attendance, if people focus on a single set, everyone will complete a full set at relatively the same time.

If you're sticking around farming for secondary sets for your hybrids, that's when the issues come to light. I don't really find it unfair that paladins for instance are in competition with rogues who only have one set, because it's not the rogues that will be taking my spare tokens once everyone has their first set. I'd be more cheesed that I have to divide my tokens with the shaman while hunter, mage and warlock tokens are rotting.

As long as there's enough cool non-set items spread around I don't think keeping your single-set players coming around long enough to let your hybrids get multi-sets. I mean, the rogues might want to stick around to get non-set pvp gear or rare weapon drops while I'm picking up my DPS set. That and the fact that the set is only 5 pieces makes me not so worried about distribution.

Assuming a fair DKP system I'll get 1 set of my choice at the same rate as everyone else. If I want an off-spec set I will have to take it in addition to my main set, as any other class would have to. If I want to focus on a single set I will get my gear just as fast as those classes like rogues, who don't have much reason to pick up more than a single set.

Thank you for some excellent replies. Certainly some food for thought.

To give a answer to the question of guild make-up:
The Guild started with a group of RL friends who played together on beta, some were experienced EQ Vets some used the game as a chat client were they zapped stuff.
Obviously after spending some time at 60 and having only enough players to run UBRS, or start to try wiping in ZG when it first opened became frustrating for the... more focused players. Those who wanted to see more of the raiding content; but whom didn't want to leave the social network they'd built up by joining a random raiding guild.
(It should also be pointed out that the average age of the guild is somewhat higher than average in WoW in general, maybe around 30; we have a high proportion of the fairer sex, and there was/is a perception that outside the bounds of the guild most other players were... well - 15, loud and obnoxious...)

We tried guild alliances, but although it gave us limited success, it ended as our allies grew large enough to run MC themselves.
Eventually we opened to wider recruitment, but for a long time the attitude of being a smaller F&F guild remained (indeed still linger in corners) and we got the numbers to beat Raggy in the middle of this year.
Even with recruitment though the guild is not huge by some standards. Around 100 level 60s, but many not regular players.
Frankly we struggle for 40 players regularly (especially for wipe nights ;)) 20/25 however is much less of a problem so we are very pleased with Blizzard's decision on lowering the raid numbers.

We remain committed to embracing social players, the boyfriends or girlfriends who just want to come on for a few hours a week, chat with pals, kill some turtles and make some mooncloth - wow is great for that - and we all know that the basic solo game is not a difficult one in the slightest. But a difficultly for us has been trying to set standards and expectations for the raid game that differ so muchfrom our normal free-for-all anarchic commune :). In TBC we plan to deal with this somewhat with by having a social rank and raider rank. It was some suggestions on the most effective way of loot distribution within these 'raiders' that I was seeking and have received. ty.

As a final note we currently run an opening Bidding DKP system, and it has caused much drama i'm afraid. :( With some people following the "spirit", and some turning out to be loot whores (but the rules don't say the hunter can't outbid the rogue on the epic dagger etc). Issues of cross-class loot (few druids vs say many mages on the Staff of Domination for eg) have also plagued us with drama...

Anyway - sorry if that was dull ;)


For me - I think the responses from Nork:

and Cathela,

are most illuminating. I think perhaps we've been too hung up on the tiered armour being the be all and end of of PvE progression. Progressing in 5man and crafting sounds great. TBH for me the part of the game i enjoy MOST is five manning with people i know and like and trust, so the chance for meaningful progression in them does sound like a return to the 'golden days' to me!


On prioritisation i expected more people to say "yes we do this...", it was certainly the "impression" i was under about "hard core" raiding guild (anyone killing bosses in Naxx for us!) the fact several people have said they are in Naxx and not doing this, perhaps just asking people to be considerate on occassion of the tanks and healers, sounds like perhaps a better way of working - it'd certainly suit our guild 'nature' more. I will take this point back to our round table for further rumination :).

Ok realy manners cost nothing. Im sorry but a reply like that is disgraceful. For one you cant comment on his spelling when your gramma is none existant. In future I advise you to make sure your own post is flawless before picking some one up on an entirely readable post.
Manners do cost nothing wether your helping some one or not, did it occur to you that English may not be his first language?

edit: Clarification