I wonder if it'll end up like hardmode LDoN missions in EQ where pugs didn't really care about beating the instance, all they cared about were the mini-bosses which you could easily gimp via ping-pong kiting and whatnot which resulted in really great gear that they normally wouldn't have been able to earn by trying to do the encounters the 'legitimate' way.

Another example of blues that are arguably on par, maybe even better, that are easier to get are the Aldor fire resist tailoring recipes compared to the heroic token fire resist cloth:

Heroic rewards (Infernoweave):
http://www.wowhead.com/?search=infernoweave

Aldor recipes (Flameheart):
http://www.wowhead.com/?search=flameheart

Can't see any real upgrades except some very sweet healing tank gear. Now the big question if there's any new known encounters where healers actualy use resistence gear? More than 1-2 pieces?

Putting the loot aside for a second it's what alot of people including myself have been longing for.

Currently, while there's fights where using resist gear might help, nothing is mandatory it seems. As for healers not needing resist gear, I think it's by design, if you force healers to use resist gear, then you have to lower the dps output considerably because healer's stats take a big dip from using resist gear(unless it's specialized healing+resist gear, but it's annoying to create and balance I guess). Then, there's a breaking point where bringing enough healers NOT in resist gear will be able to outheal the whole thing and make the encounter too easy.
At least that's what I believe but I might be totally wrong.

You'll be required to do a number of Heroic instances for raid attunements. They've been recently adjusted, and are not that bad anymore as they used to be, Anias and others.

Well doable by Bluebies, I'd say.

I think your definition of bluebie and mine are different riot =P

I call bluebie - mostly blues, not optimal for each slot. This player is going to want to consumable for heroics.
You seem to call bluebie - all blues, optimal for each slot. This player is not going to need as many consumables (although they may help for some specific instances)


The instances _feel_ tuned for consumable use at the start. Especially if you don't upgrade to tbc items with their generous stamina values. (I'm looking at you mr 8/9 faith, and you mr 8/9 dreamwalker).

We'll see what goes live, but last night in arcatraz I was happy to have my flask =P

A flask of titans while healing ? or were you tanking ?

Yes, there is some strange things going on with stamina values on gear. There is a lot of quest rewards that has reasonably good stamina (30 stam trinket, anyone ?). But once we are in "good gear" department (heroic mode items, raid drops) stamina values are shrinking significantly.
My current theory is that it is a way to reduce PvE gear advantage in PvP, i.e. good PvE items are short on stamina deliberately, making PvP items (and levelling items, because most people will have those in PvP for quite a while) better.

We can only hope they have been scrapped entirely then.

I've long since banked my unique gems of crappiness, so I haven't seen a roll box for one in forever. That said, maybe they've been scrapped. I doubt it though. Prime farming material here.

I always thought of the Heroic dungeons as more of a challenge than as a way to improve gear quality. Similar to how bored 60s will try to iron man the blue dungeons: to see if they can and not really because the rewards are much better.

I don't think the risk reward will ever make it really the most efficient way to get stuff*, but if there aren't heavy consumables involved, they can be a fun challenge. Similar to something like Guitar Hero: hard mode is a good approximation of most of the songs, and a decent challenge, but hey, sometimes you just want to give expert a try. And it's always a good way to impress.

*excepting heroic only rewards.

On the topic of epic gems from Heroics, we got one from Slave Pens yesterday. 5 Spell Hit Rating and 6 Stamina or so. The instance felt about spot on too - perfectly doable in TBC blues - though there are a few pulls that are in need of further tuning, in my opinion.

And yes, people in blues that don't have the best possible blue for each slot are going to need consumables, and yes they'll have a hard time, but the instances aren't designed for those types of "bluebies" anyway - they're fully intended to be instances tackled by people in the best blues - as a single group raid experience.

Can anyone please reassure me that the thought of grinding a heroic instance numerous times for resist gear isn't as gay as it sounds?

I would reassure you it's better than grinding raid instances for resist gear that you use to complete said raid instance. I would much rather have all of my resist gear sorted for an instance that I was just starting, then to get to Ragnaros, Huhuran, or Sapphiron and be stuck until the requisite number of resist pieces drop (or crafting mats).

This is going to be a benchmark that I use when determining if people are allowed to come to raids: "Have you turned in all your badges for your resist gear yet?" instead of having to hear "I need more xxx before I can have my resist gear. Gimme."

Best I can tell its not. Its the option to grind a heroic instance multiple times for FR resist epics that are a little better than the blue crafted ones available. Good for min-maxing, but unlikely to be a priority for non-hardcore people.

Plus at least the tokens drop for everyone now.

If it's that or grinding Maraudon, I know which one I prefer! And you know you're one badge closer to getting that Infernoweave thingy after killing a heroic boss, while you can easily be no closer at all to getting better gear if you were farming for random droppable resist gear.

It also makes resistance gear easier to get, since you can run many heroic instances in one week. While in the old system with lava/fiery cores or frozen runes, once you clear the farm part of the instance for the week, there's no way to get more resist gear no matter how much effort you go to. (Aside from attuning stealthable alts for Naxx or running trash-only MC clears, but how many guilds really do that?)

And as Twid says, it changes lack of resistance gear from "the evil officers haven't given me any lava cores yet" to "I haven't done anything to improve my gear". On the other hand that might mean you'll need to spend more total playtime to progress in raids, since getting resistance gear won't be a byproduct of that, but will have to be an extra activity.

I just have to echo these sentiments. If a raid needs resistance gear then damned if I will not be happier if I can get it in a five-man group that might even get some upgrades/side-grades along the way. If you can make those 5-mans difficult and use them to teach some of the spoon-fed raiding crowd how to properly play their class then I will be so happy I might just forgive you for blood elves.

Now, I might change my tune when I'm running heroic mode #239 for new recruits but hey... we could hopefully require plebes to have already done that can't we! My hatred for eternal backflagging is well known.

It's already been said that these instances are basically unpuggable, so it's either going to be your guild gearing new recruits up or the one they just left.

I farmed all my NR from Maraudon in one afternoon. Probably 3 hours tops. Solo.

This is where my ignorance of the beta comes in. To me, it sounds like the goal of the heroic instances are the tokens which are used as currency. So you get to choose between your resist gear (which my assumption is that you need it. That bodes well for me, wanting to get a tanking set and healing set) and your fun items.

That's true, and I definitely like the idea that it's not attached to the instance you are doing. Getting frost resist gear in Naxx after you've already killed Sapphiron and KT is doubleplus gay.

TBH, I'd rather have all the "required" raiding stuff easy to get. It improves the recruiting pool, and makes it easier to play alts, or switch character classes. IMO, tradeskills and the auction house should be all anyone needs for resist gear.

Not really seeing how this is a bad thing. Blizzard demonstrated no fear of requiring people to do difficult 5-man content if they want their rewards. 45 minute baron provoked such wailing and gnashing of teeth, but it was neither impossible nor did it require gear beyond well chosen greens/blues you already had.

Difficult content that requires you to organize, perform fundamental class functions, and learn how to deal with difficult situations/abilities/group stacking? I think this pretty much primes you for a raid spot- assuming that you're trying to recruit people for your raid, why would you want them to bypass it?

Now when player xxxxxxxxx wants to switch his alt over to his main, thus tossing aside a whole lot of instance work- that's a different story.

Unless grinding for resist gear involves some *serious* lifestyle altering choices, I think you're using the wrong phrase there, and generally it isn't smiled upon by the mods. :)

If this frees raid bosses loot tables from resist gear, making space for more attractive loot then i am all for it.

You will need the Primal Nethers from Heroic mode Bosses for most of the top quality craftable gear as well.