As a TF owner I'm very curious about how higher DPS weapons in the expansion compare for tanking. Clearly there are better mitigation weapons out there. For threat, the general consensus is that nothing currently available in TBC is as good as TF. So the natural question is, how good will future weapons have to get before we can really consider using them for threat over a TF?

Assumptions:

-Shield slam and revenge used when possible, so say 20 gcd's per minute are spent on devastates (5 sunders)
-Defiance, 1H spec, defensive stance
-I'm ignoring innate threat of abilities because it won't be different for different weapons
-Threat from shield slam and revenge are not included because they are weapon independent

Variables:

c: crit %
p: parry %
d: dodge %
g: glancing blow %
m: miss %
DR: damage reduction
AP: attack power

Let's figure the threat generated over one minute.

TF avg = 79.5 physical + 23 nature

auto_dmg = 1.1 * 0.9 * (DR * (1.9 * (AP/14) + 79.5) + 23)

auto_threat = 2 * auto * c + auto * 0.7 * g + auto * (1 - (c + p + d + m + g))

dev_dmg = 1.1 * 0.9 * (DR * (0.5 * (2.4 * (AP/14) + 79.5) + 5 * 35) + 0.5 * 23)

dev_threat = 2 * dev * c + dev * (1 - (c + p + d + m))

TF proc:

Atk spd debuff = 92 threat
NR debuff = 149 threat
dmg = 270 in def stance
92 + 149 + 270 = 511

proc_threat = 511 * (1 - (p + d + m)) * 0.18

threat = 1.3 * 1.15 * (20 * dev_threat + (60/1.9) * auto_threat + (20 + (60/1.9)) * proc_threat)

I chose the following parameters based on reports of Karazhan gear:

DR = 0.8
AP = 800
c = 0.1
p = 0.05
d = 0.05
m = 0.05
g = 0.4

Solving we get the following:

auto_dmg = 172
auto_threat = 143
dev_dmg = 236
dev_threat = 224
proc_threat = 78
threat = 19463

Now let's do the same but with HS instead of auto attacks:

hs_dmg = 1.1 * 0.9 * (DR * (2.4 * (AP/14) + 79.5 + 208) + 23)

hs_threat = 2 * hs * c + hs * (1 - (c + p + d + m))

hs_dmg = 359
hs_threat = 341
threat = 28811

If we assume a weapon upgrade that is the same speed as TF (1.9), we can solve for the DPS of the weapon needed to match TF's threat.

auto_dmg = 1.1 * 0.9 * DR * (1.9 * (AP/14) + 1.9*dps)

[top] 86 + 1.5 * dps

dev_dmg

1.1 * 0.9 * DR * (0.5 * (2.4 * (AP/14) + 1.9*dps) + 5 * 35)

[top] 193 + .75 * dps

auto_threat

.83 * auto_dmg
dev_threat = .95 * dev_dmg
threat = 1.3 * 1.15 * (20 * dev_threat + (60/1.9) * auto_threat)

threat = 8852 + 80*dps
dps = 133

Or with HS instead of auto:

hs_dmg = 1.1 * 0.9 * DR * (2.4 * (AP/14) + 1.9*dps + 208)

[top] 273 + 1.5 * dps

hs_threat

.95 * hs_dmg
threat = 1.3 * 1.15 * (20 * dev_threat + (60/1.9) * hs_threat)

threat = 17726 + 89*dps
dps = 125

So that gives us a rough idea of what an upgrade to TF would look like, above 125 dps (with HS) or 133 dps (without). Feel free to point out math or logic errors.

There is another thread touching heavily on this subject.
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewt...hp?id=8065&p=4


On subject though, another thing to consider comparing tanking weapons. You choose to set up a scenario with devestate as the main skill used, in that case you should compare TF to a slow weapon, or another weapon that benefits from having its proc inflated like TF. Comparing it to a fast weapon without a substatial proc is pretty misleading as those weapons would be better be used in conjunction with sunder/heroic spam.

The topic you listed mainly deals with using TF for dps purposes.

Devastate favors slow weapons, HS favors fast weapons. I haven't seen any numbers anywhere for HS rank 11 innate threat, so until then we can't accurately compare weapons with a different speed than TF. But I'd be happy to run the numbers using rank 10 and different weapon speeds.

Ok I did a more exhaustive comparison for different weapon speeds. I chose speed ranges from 1.3 to 2.9 as that's the range currently available in-game. To compare different speeds I had to incorporate innate threat values for the abilities involved. I used numbers for rank 10 HS since rank 11 is unknown.

In all of the following scenarios, over the course of a minute, Shield Slam is used 10 times, Revenge is used 12 times, and the other 18 gcd's are used by either Devastate or Sunder or nothing.

1. HS spam, use nothing on the gcd's other than shield slam and revenge.
2. HS and sunder spam
3. HS and devastate spam
4. auto and sunder spam
5. auto and devastate spam

For TF we get the following threat values over a minute:

1. 46759
2. 54859
3. 55508
4. 38754
5. 39403

So for TF, HS and devastate spam is best, just barely beating HS and sunder spam. If rage is not unlimited, HS spam beats auto + (sunder or devastate).

Now we're going to do the following five comparisons for weapons of different speeds:

1. New weapon's HS spam vs. TF's HS spam
2. New weapon's HS + Dev vs. TF's HS + Dev
3. New weapon's HS + Sunder vs. TF's HS + Dev
4. New weapon's auto + Dev vs. TF's auto + Dev
5. New weapon's auto + Sunder vs. TF's auto + Dev

Note that we aren't comparing vs. TF's sunder because it's inferior to Devastate in each case (for TF).

Here are the results:
For each weapon speed, the table shows at what value of DPS a weapon will produce more threat than TF over a minute. There are some conclusions we can draw from this table.

First look at the pair of auto columns. The auto + sunder column has the same value for every weapon speed, since sunder is independent of the weapon used. Auto + dev favors slower weapons, since you need only a 132 dps 2.9 spd weapon to match TF, vs. a 162 dps 1.3 spd weapon. Looking at these two columns, you can also see that about 1.65 is the point where the devastate and sunder threat lines cross. Faster that that, sunder is better. Slower than that, devastate is better.

Next look at the pair of HS columns. 1.85 spd is about where sunder and devastate cross in this case. It's easy to see that for fast weapons, HS completely dominates as we know. I was surprised to see by just how much it dominates. As you can see from the HS-only column, at 1.3 spd, even a 3 dps weapon beats TF. 50% more HS's with its damage bonus and threat bonus far outweighs the dps difference (and even TF's procs). Here's a comparison between two 1.3 spd weapons that illustrates just how little the dps matters with HS spam:

3 dps, 1.3 spd:
HS does 405 threat on average
Total of 54886 threat over a minute (scenario 1)

80.8 dps, 1.3 spd (Searing Sunblade):
HS does 481 threat on average
Total of 60137 threat over a minute (scenario 1)

So your total threat only increases by about 10% going from a 3 dps to 80.8 dps 1.3 spd weapon.

Anyway very interesting results IMO. Happy to take suggestions for further improvements.

If two topics have the same keyword in the topic title, it doesn't make them the same topic. The topic you linked dealt specifically with the threat values of TF's proc, and it contains out-of-date mechanics. The threat value of the proc is just one single number in my math. It would be like asking any discussion on rogue builds to go into a topic focused on Mutilate. My topic is wider in scope, and it's common to see (valid) threads dealing with an issue that's been discussed before, but using new TBC information to analyze it.

A few questions about your numbers:

-Did you calculate Dev threat based on a 5 sunder stack or none?
-What AP values are you using for your Dev threat? It's a scaling skill, afterall.

Edit: Nevermind the second question. Comparing different weapons means you wear the same gear and get the same normalised AP bonus. The amount of AP would still be usefull when comparing sunder vs dev for a given weapon though.

First, thanks for you calculations. As far as I can see they do make sense.

I believe, the glancing blow penalty was reduced to 24%, so shouldn't that read 0.76 instead of 0.7?

And as for your tanking stats:
800AP and 0.1crit seem kinda low to me.
Raidbuffed having 1500 AP and 0.2 crit is not uncommon even now.

The AP difference should have not effect on your results, but the higher crit rating would have a noticable effect (lowering the "needed" DPS of a new tanking weapon)

Can this really be true? shouldn't it be the other way around?

You are remembering that you are not generating any "offencive" rage if you use heroic strike, thus the cost is higher than just the rage value of heroic (heroic value + rage not gained from auto attack) thus in a rage starved environment(offtanking or attempting to regain aggro especially since those have any incomming dmg) Sunder or Devestate should come out to be the clear winner. Wereas in a infinity rage environment a very fast weapon coupled with mass heroics + max use of GCD's would win.

5 sunder stack.

I've seen conflicting reports on that, elsewhere I've heard it was increased to 35%. I'll try to search for some data on that on these forums.

I'll go ahead and run the program again with typical raid buffs, good suggestion. But current equipment isn't a good indicator. Karazhan level gear definitely has less AP than even tier 1/2 tanking gear. Here's a sample gear set:

Warbringer Chest
Warbringer Helm
Warbringer Gloves
Warbringer Legs
Warbringer Shoulders
Vambraces of Courage
Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable
Boots of Elusion
Barbed Choker of Discipline
Gilded Thorium Cloak
Violet Signet of the Great Protector
Shermanar Great-Ring
Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600
Timelapse Shard
Crest of the Sha'tar

It's probably not a perfect set, just for illustrative purposes. That setup gives 87 str. Compare that with *just* our other tiered sets, not even counting other slots:

Might: 143 str
Wrath: 127 str
Dreadnaught: 147 str

Ghork: I'm not looking at rage efficiency, just maximum threat. I wasn't referring to a rage-starved situation like off-tanking, what I meant was a typical tanking situation in a raid where your rage from incoming damage dwarfs your rage generated by damage done. In that situation, you should have enough rage for heroic spam + shield slams and revenge, especiallly with focused rage. I want to look more closely at rage efficiency when rank 11 HS numbers are available, but here's a quick example with rank 10.

Searing Sunblade, 1.3 spd, 80.8 dps, will do 481 HS threat. An auto will do about 142 damage. You get about 4 rage from that. So HS gives 481 * 1.495 / (9 + 4) = 55 threat per rage. Sunder gives 301 * 1.495 / 9 = 50 threat per rage. At that weapon speed, devastate will be far worse than sunder so I won't even bother with that calculation.

Incidentally here's how much incoming damage you'd need for HS spam with a 1.3 and shield slam/revenge on every cooldown:

(60/1.3) * 9 + 12 * 2 + 10 * 17 = 609 or about 10 rage per second

2.5 * dps / 274.7 = 10 rps

dps ~ 1100

Seems very reasonable.

While there are some nice numbers here about threat generation, several posters have posted links to other TF threads with similiar data. I'm closing this for now.