Most of these changes have been on the beta, but as people have noted most of the people ran instances weeks ago and its been pretty dead on beta the last few weeks, its going to be interesting to see how the threat changes work out.
I went to the AV reward person yesterday on beta and there were no 70 PVP rewards, so I assume they aren't introducing new stuff for PVP faction rewards.
Has anyone yet found the PVP reward vendor though? He disappeared from stormwind a few days ago on beta and I haven't heard where he popped up.
If you already downloaded the 155 meg patches you have 4 more megs to download (159mb total).
But they did. Tanking is defined as generating enough aggro on all that is dps'd to hold it's attention against your dps classes unloading damage on it while being able to survive that attention (with healing) that is what tanking is, and if your dps knows which side of the keyboard is up, then heroic strike levels of threat/second alone will not suffice.
this is a very, very bad change, because it means that in order to tank anything whatsoever against a bog standard affliction warlock (a dps class with the lowest possible amount of spike threat, almost all damage from dots.) a bear will have to produce Damage Per Second equal to (warlock dps - the threat component of heroic strike spam) / 1.45 at a minimum. Lets put some numbers on that. Level 70 warlock in decent kit and buffs :1200 dps. Threat component from "heroic maul" at 70: 200 TPS or so (this is a guess, since I have no idea what the heck blizzard means by threat comparable to heroic strike. But heroic strike is not good threat at all.)
(1200-200) / 1.45 = 689 DPS.
Does anyone think that near 700 dps bears are a good idea? or are going to happen? And please note that 700 or so dps will not generate enough threat to make for a comfortable margin, it will just be enough threat that you will hold aggro as long as your dps doesn't go on crit streaks. I would try to write up a better critique of this but I bloody well can't because this change has not been on the test or beta servers at all. So not only is this a massive nerf, it is a massive and untested nerf.
Currently my bloodpressure is in regions it really shouldn't go over a game. I really, really dislike this.
But they did. Tanking is defined as generating enough aggro on all that is dps'd to hold it's attention against your dps classes unloading damage on it while being able to survive that attention (with healing) that is what tanking is, and if your dps knows which side of the keyboard is up, then heroic strike levels of threat/second alone will not suffice.
this is a very, very bad change, because it means that in order to tank anything whatsoever against a bog standard affliction warlock (a dps class with the lowest possible amount of spike threat, almost all damage from dots.) a bear will have to produce Damage Per Second equal to (warlock dps - the threat component of heroic strike spam) / 1.45 at a minimum. Lets put some numbers on that. Level 70 warlock in decent kit and buffs :1200 dps. Threat component from "heroic maul" at 70: 200 TPS or so (this is a guess, since I have no idea what the heck blizzard means by threat comparable to heroic strike. But heroic strike is not good threat at all.)
(1200-200) / 1.45 = 689 DPS.
Does anyone think that near 700 dps bears are a good idea? or are going to happen? And please note that 700 or so dps will not generate enough threat to make for a comfortable margin, it will just be enough threat that you will hold aggro as long as your dps doesn't go on crit streaks. I would try to write up a better critique of this but I bloody well can't because this change has not been on the test or beta servers at all. So not only is this a massive nerf, it is a massive and untested nerf.
Currently my bloodpressure is in regions it really shouldn't go over a game. I really, really dislike this.
For ranged attackers, there's another 20% threshold, yes? And said vanilla DPSer should have something like a 10% threat reduction from talents. We can be less generous and say it's 5% due to off-tree attacks as well. That should multiply the 1200 by 0.75 initially.
Nothing earthshattering, just wanted to add some completeness.
DOT and rot.
Travian: Phased Weasel, -144 | 61, Damascus.
For ranged attackers, there's another 20% threshold, yes? And said vanilla DPSer should have something like a 10% threat reduction from talents. We can be less generous and say it's 5% due to off-tree attacks as well. That should multiply the 1200 by 0.75 initially.
Nothing earthshattering, just wanted to add some completeness.
and salvation. Oh and theres a new hunter talent to increase the tanks threat at the beggining of the fight. People are going to have to hold back on dps a bit, not that big of a deal really.
Salvation is no where near guarranteed in a 5 man, same with a hunter. Additionally, the hunter threat is only a few seconds of spike, nice to establish, but in any fight of a reasonable length I was ignoring it for the sake of argument.
EDIT: Yes, I am referring to the hunter skill Misdirection.
/end derail
DOT and rot.
Travian: Phased Weasel, -144 | 61, Damascus.
Since now both Beta and Live clients on the same build, maybe they are inter-exchangeable in some ways, so, I was thinking about editing my realmlist.wtf and attempting to log into the live realms using the beta client. Assuming this to be theoritically possible, are there any known dangers regarding account suspension/bans for trying something like this?
The reason I am interested in the way clients functions is because being in south america, I will not be getting my hands on a TBC copy for at least a week or so, and I'm not thrilled about having to download the dvd image on the 16th.
edit:
To chime in on the much discussed druid threat changes. They were necessary. With TBC itemization as seen in beta, and how modifiers worked with Maul, it was scaling dangerously fast. Druids are still going to be very viable tanks despite all these changes.
I agree that it seemed odd that they decided to "Nerf" druids so that look now worse than before when compared to warriors, but, if they had just instead "Buffed" warrior threat generation and given them more tools for multi-mob tanking, then you are at a risk of making tanking too easy. It's supposed to be challenging, despite how boring it must feel. Good druid tanks are still going to be very competitive tanks, they just won't have a walk in the park as compared to how it feels right now.
I'm going to attempt to not whine about them nerfing druid tanking rather than buffing warriors.
Well, honestly this is just stupid, especially since it makes Paladins much better than anybody else on multi-pulls in 5mans.
This is true, for the most part..
I'm just glad this isn't full of mouth-breather-retards saying "I will never heal a warrior again." I'd like to see them keep to that and get in a raid/raiding guild.
I'm going to miss crusader... Hopefully the proc rate isn't completely hosed as you leve, just the str boost/healing. (Maybe mongoose is now better, or there'll be a level 70 equivalent?)
For ranged attackers, there's another 20% threshold, yes? And said vanilla DPSer should have something like a 10% threat reduction from talents. We can be less generous and say it's 5% due to off-tree attacks as well. That should multiply the 1200 by 0.75 initially.
Nothing earthshattering, just wanted to add some completeness.
and salvation. Oh and theres a new hunter talent to increase the tanks threat at the beggining of the fight. People are going to have to hold back on dps a bit, not that big of a deal really.
Salvation is no where near guarranteed in a 5 man, same with a hunter. Additionally, the hunter threat is only a few seconds of spike, nice to establish, but in any fight of a reasonable length I was ignoring it for the sake of argument.
/end derail
You are forgetting the new hunter misdirection. That should add a decent amount of threat. Infact in raids it may add way too much unless I'm missing something, as all 3 hunters can apparently use it on the MT.
Sure salv/hunter/etc. is not guaranteed in a 5-man. Nor is it guaranteed that a 5 man will be trivial with any class make-up, that has the pre-requisite tank/healer/3dps. Different classes have all sorts of strengths and issues and different synergies, not a bad thing in my book.
Threat component from "heroic maul" at 70: 200 TPS or so (this is a guess, since I have no idea what the heck blizzard means by threat comparable to heroic strike. But heroic strike is not good threat at all.)
First of all, shut up. Heroic stike is excellent god damn threat.
I would try to write up a better critique of this but I bloody well can't because this change has not been on the test or beta servers at all. So not only is this a massive nerf, it is a massive and untested nerf.
The changes being patched live have been on test for a long long time. The fact that no one noticed it should tell you how good druids are.
It also amuses me that you have no idea Lacerate exists or what it does.
I'm going to miss Blazing Speed procing on my mount. Was there any real reason, other than it removing snares obviously, that I'm missing for it to stop procing on a mount? Every other shield/buff works mounted. :( That was alot of fun.
ps: Don't forget about talents (10%) and Blessing of Salvation (30%). I agree it was a big change, and maybe not the best way to go about it, but you had to see -some- change coming before BC.
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Addons aren't a crutch, they're tools to be abused by skilled players to increase performance. Like a carpenter using a hammer, a fisherman using a lure, or Xi using curse words.
Threat component from "heroic maul" at 70: 200 TPS or so (this is a guess, since I have no idea what the heck blizzard means by threat comparable to heroic strike. But heroic strike is not good threat at all.)
First of all, shut up. Heroic stike is excellent god damn threat.
I would try to write up a better critique of this but I bloody well can't because this change has not been on the test or beta servers at all. So not only is this a massive nerf, it is a massive and untested nerf.
The changes being patched live have been on test for a long long time. The fact that no one noticed it should tell you how good druids are.
It also amuses me that you have no idea Lacerate exists or what it does.
A fully stacked lacerate does ~half the threat of a sunder armor, and many mobs in TBC are immune to bleed effects. Can't get blood from a stone, you know.
Try tanking with just Heroic Strike and Mortal Strike. That's the new druid tanking.
Originally Posted by Apate
Zyla, International Man of a Certain Standard.
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
What have you brought to this discussion? The usual vacuous and contentless tripe that you contribute to these forums - no more and no less.
Threat component from "heroic maul" at 70: 200 TPS or so (this is a guess, since I have no idea what the heck blizzard means by threat comparable to heroic strike. But heroic strike is not good threat at all.)
First of all, shut up. Heroic stike is excellent god damn threat.
Not compared to Old Maul. Furthermore, in a year after 3 more tiers of raid gear, when all the DPS has upgraded their weapons and warriors are still stuck with their old rank of HS, it will no longer be as excellent as you think. That's the point.
Originally Posted by Ultramax
Originally Posted by Lavode
I would try to write up a better critique of this but I bloody well can't because this change has not been on the test or beta servers at all. So not only is this a massive nerf, it is a massive and untested nerf.
The changes being patched live have been on test for a long long time. The fact that no one noticed it should tell you how good druids are.
It also amuses me that you have no idea Lacerate exists or what it does.
No. Just no. The changes to Maul and Swipe are new as of today. They were never on beta, and they were never on the PTR. They were never included in the beta or PTR patch notes ANYWHERE. All the other changes were on the PTR, but these two were not.
Lacerate is, as Zyla noted, about half the threat of a Sunder. It's nowhere near a replacement for the lost threat of Maul and Swipe. Furthermore, the following types of mobs are immune to bleeds: Undead, Elemental, and Mechanical. Unless we are never going to see another Naxx or MC, then Lacerate is meaningless for a significant portion of raid boss mobs just because of its damage type.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
None of the BC instances I can think of have elemental bosses that I can think of. Mechanaar has one mechanical boss, and that's all I can think of. I don't believe there's any undead bosses, either, but I might be forgetting one. Note that I havn't done Arcatraz.
As for raid instances: Gruul's Lair is all humanoid. Magtheridon is a demon. Coilfang is humanoids with a possible water elemental sub-boss. Tempest Keep is humanoids with a possible mechanical sub-boss. Black Citadel is humanoids with a probable demon or two. Mount Hyjal is almost certainly all demon. That leaves Karazhan as the only raid instance with a signifigant amount of non-bleeders.
Not compared to Old Maul. Furthermore, in a year after 3 more tiers of raid gear, when all the DPS has upgraded their weapons and warriors are still stuck with their old rank of HS, it will no longer be as excellent as you think. That's the point.
But they did. Tanking is defined as generating enough aggro on all that is dps'd to hold it's attention against your dps classes unloading damage on it while being able to survive that attention (with healing) that is what tanking is, and if your dps knows which side of the keyboard is up, then heroic strike levels of threat/second alone will not suffice.
this is a very, very bad change, because it means that in order to tank anything whatsoever against a bog standard affliction warlock (a dps class with the lowest possible amount of spike threat, almost all damage from dots.) a bear will have to produce Damage Per Second equal to (warlock dps - the threat component of heroic strike spam) / 1.45 at a minimum. Lets put some numbers on that. Level 70 warlock in decent kit and buffs :1200 dps. Threat component from "heroic maul" at 70: 200 TPS or so (this is a guess, since I have no idea what the heck blizzard means by threat comparable to heroic strike. But heroic strike is not good threat at all.)
(1200-200) / 1.45 = 689 DPS.
Does anyone think that near 700 dps bears are a good idea? or are going to happen? And please note that 700 or so dps will not generate enough threat to make for a comfortable margin, it will just be enough threat that you will hold aggro as long as your dps doesn't go on crit streaks. I would try to write up a better critique of this but I bloody well can't because this change has not been on the test or beta servers at all. So not only is this a massive nerf, it is a massive and untested nerf.
Currently my bloodpressure is in regions it really shouldn't go over a game. I really, really dislike this.
1) You're not approaching this the right way on a number of different levels.
- A warlock at 70 will have soulshatter and SHOULD be using it to halve his threat periodically (just as a hunter should feign, a rogue should vanish and a mage should use invisibility - every major dps class has a threat reduction ability). It's not realistic to assume that you will be ahead of dps at all times in every fight. If that were possible, it'd make it easy mode for those classes and completely eliminate a necessary factor of the game.
- A lock SHOULD be standing at range which increases their aggro threshold by 20%
- A properly spec'd affliction lock will generate 90% of the threat you're assuming, as will most dps classes
- Check my math, but your equation should probably be [(1200*0.9)*0.8]
2) There's a several page long thread on warrior tanking where several people make a very strong case that heroic strike is one of the best threat generation options for tanking. Personal experience also tells me that revenge + HS + slam are enough to hold damn near anything (provided your dps isn't drooling at the keyboard and actually pays attention to something other than large yellow numbers).
Mangle + maul + lacerate is probably comparable threat generation, particularly when you consider that they are dps-based abilities and will scale with several other talents that you have in your tree. I sure wish I had a talent to increase my heroic strike by 10% more damage when I used it. Or that I did 110% base physical damage as opposed to 100% in defensive stance.
3) There was a 6+ page thread during the holidays about "tanking and the changing of the guard" where there was some theorycraft showing just how good a druid tank was going to be. They were the fastest scaling and potentially best physical mitigation tank you could get. Quite honestly, I was concerned that warriors were going to be totally replaced because druids were superior in just about every major category except magical damage mitigation and 4+ target tanking.
I'm not saying that the druid changes are awesome, but they were probably necessary. I'd be careful about jumping to conclusions about druid threat being horribly "nerfed" until the base threat on everything is actually tested. Yes, you may not be the ideal tank in every situation anymore, but neither are warriors. You are still a very effective tank and you still have several % scaling mechanics that a warrior does not.
_________________________
Back on topic, I'm glad they finally made it so a resist wouldn't knock you out of stealth. Also happy that they fixed the devastate ranking up issue.
I notice nothing was said about the overall reduction to mana costs to all spells, the new shaman Totem Recall ability, or the reduced gold cost for standard mounts and riding skills.
Azeroth is under attack! Horrific creatures are swarming from a suddenly active Dark Portal and have rampaged into the Blasted Lands. Defenders from Nethergarde Keep have scrambled to meet the enemy head-on. However, even with the assistance of reinforcements from the ever-vigilant Argent Dawn, the forces of Azeroth need your help!
Not much is known of the invasion at this early stage, but early reports from the battlefront describe wave after wave of demonic attackers charging from the Dark Portal. It is also reported that Lord Kazzak was seen departing through the Dark Portal. In his stead he has left his minion, Highlord Kruul, to sow fear and confusion among the defenders.
Accompanied by a host of infernals, Kruul has been seen near a number of major cities in Azeroth, along with the following outdoor areas:
Hinterlands
Eastern Plaguelands
Winterspring
Stranglethorn Vale
Azshara
Silithus
Searing Gorge
Not even the elite forces of the Argent Dawn have dared attack Kruul directly. Only a large and well-coordinated group of adventurers might stand a chance of defeating him.
-------------
Supposed to be on the WoW main page, but I can't access it from work. C/Ped from another forum.
Edit: I'll confirm that the message is on the WoW site.
Originally Posted by Malan
I notice nothing was said about the overall reduction to mana costs to all spells, the new shaman Totem Recall ability, or the reduced gold cost for standard mounts and riding skills.
EJ Forum Rule #235: Threads will always become about Feral Druids.
That said I am so buying my riding skill today.
here is some awareness. If you dont like it then dont read it. It doesnt effecct you so why care,...right? RIGHT?
You are still a very effective tank and you still have several % scaling mechanics that a warrior does not.
If that's the case (I'm hoping it is, I'm not sure it will be) then most of the druids won't have any major problems with this change (though I wouldn't mind a new tanking ability as compensation for the change ^^), contrary to popular belief we don't want to be the best tanks, we want to be avaluable choice.
Christ, it took just one post in for this to become a LOLFERAL thread.
In other news, the main page of the official site has info on the Dark Portal event. It sounds like demonic invasions within a number of regions, Naxxramas event style, with the addition of a world boss named Highlord Kruul who also spawns in various regions and major cities.
In other other news, this patch does NOT enable BC content for those who already have BC-enabled accounts. New races are selectable but not creatable, experience gain is still locked at 60, and the Dark Portal cannot be entered. Everything else is in order though, maybe we're waiting on a 0,1 hotfix patch to enable said content.
Christ, it took just one post in for this to become a LOLFERAL thread.
In other news, the main page of the official site has info on the Dark Portal event. It sounds like demonic invasions within a number of regions, Naxxramas event style, with the addition of a world boss named Highlord Kruul who also spawns in various regions and major cities.
In other other news, this patch does NOT enable BC content for those who already have BC-enabled accounts. New races are selectable but not creatable, experience gain is still locked at 60, and the Dark Portal cannot be entered. Everything else is in order though, maybe we're waiting on a 0,1 hotfix patch to enable said content.
Two words for you- Street Date. Blizz has absolute control over when people can upgrade thier accounts and could even have an in game hotfix to be applied as well- but frankly none of us should know that since the street date is 7 days from now and no store really wants to deal with the consequences of breaking that... right?
If you're referring to the beta enabled clients- of course you're not going to be able to load up expansion zones on live with a Beta key.
BSG Reference Sheet
in EJBSG 10 -My instincts tell me that we cannot sacrifice democracy just because the president makes a bad decision.
Just to echo what Rambar said, the live build today is exactly the same as the current beta build, so yes, the druid changes are on beta. The druid we've been running Karazhan with had no issues tanking, even on bleed immune mobs, and even some multi-pulls; it's not nearly as bad as you think.
It's rather curious that they only mention talent resets for druids and rogues, considering paladins also had some fairly major changes. Crusader Strike to 10 second cooldown from 6, the Improved Resistance Auras/Improved Divine Shield/Improved Righteous Fury changes, and also the Holy tree changes. I was expecting them to give another talent reset for the TBC patch, so I'll update again if any of my characters other than my rogue get a talent reset.
It also amuses me that you have no idea Lacerate exists or what it does.
A fully stacked lacerate does ~half the threat of a sunder armor, and many mobs in TBC are immune to bleed effects. Can't get blood from a stone, you know.
It's an aditional source of threat that Lavode ignored so he could make up a bullshit number of needing 700 dps to tank for a warlock. I made absolutely no comments on how good it was. Also, I understand it's a god damn bleed.
Originally Posted by Kazanir
Originally Posted by Ultramax
Originally Posted by Lavode
Threat component from "heroic maul" at 70: 200 TPS or so (this is a guess, since I have no idea what the heck blizzard means by threat comparable to heroic strike. But heroic strike is not good threat at all.)
First of all, shut up. Heroic stike is excellent god damn threat.
Not compared to Old Maul. Furthermore, in a year after 3 more tiers of raid gear, when all the DPS has upgraded their weapons and warriors are still stuck with their old rank of HS, it will no longer be as excellent as you think. That's the point.
Holy shit?! HEROIC STRIKE DOESN'T SCALE?! Oh holy fuck tell me something I haven't known for over a god damn year. I was refuting his 700 dps number. I know it fucking doesn't scale I never said it did. You know what else doesn't scale? Revenge doesn't god damn scale. Shield Slam doesn't fucking scale.* Devastate doesn't fucking scale.* So in a year from now Heroic Strike will still be excellent fucking threat because none of our other abilites scale.
Originally Posted by Kazanir
They were never on beta, and they were never on the PTR. They were never included in the beta or PTR patch notes ANYWHERE. All the other changes were on the PTR, but these two were not.
You're fucking wrong, period. The build patched today is the exact same build on beta. Thse changes have been there for awhile. Patch notes for beta have never been complete. Just because it's not in the patch notes doesn't mean it's not there on beta.
Furthermore, the following types of mobs are immune to bleeds: Undead, Elemental, and Mechanical. Unless we are never going to see another Naxx or MC, then Lacerate is meaningless for a significant portion of raid boss mobs just because of its damage type.
Your psychic abilites to tell me that there will be no monsters you can use Lacerate on in raid zones you haven't been to is some god damn amazing shit. You should be helping solve murders.
*I know more ap/shield block will increase their damage and their threat slightly but the static bonus applied to them never increases except by new rank.
01/09/07, 12:17 PM
