I thought one of the pillars could be jumped to in stealth with speed boots enchant and 0/5 camo - the one with the chip in the corner - but you have to jump at the correct angle. Also I think you can make it to both with camo.

All this hate for Blade's Edge is quite interesting. While just doing games fooling around, I really hated all the LoS issues I would get as a healer. But after doing some serious matches there, I've come to appreciate it's subtleties a lot more. I've found hunters to be almost overpowered on this map actually, if only because of their frost traps.

Some little interesting tidbits that I've found is that at least male taurens can melee people on the platform from the bottom.

It will be interesting though if you are able to skip out on rated games only because it happens on a map you don't like. I really don't think that would work out to well, as seeing from the responses here, Blade's Edge would never get played. I'd rather see teams that are proficient at all maps be the ones that are successful, instead of teams that just play one map. At the same time I'd also like to see more arena maps implemented.

On Nagrand, the time it takes for your opponents to become visible is quite frustrating, and the tornadoes start appearing way to early in the match. I don't mind that they are there to make sure matches don't last too long, but they need to delay them at least another minute or two. On Blade's Edge the only thing that is somewhat annoying are the things sticking out in middle of the bridge. Though I'm sure with more practice I'll actually know exactly where they are, but for now, it's kind of frustrating to run into something and not know why you can't move forward.

It'll be interesting if teams end up partially segregating themselves by the Arena they choose to play in - if a consensus forms that Blade's Edge is hellish for anyone other than DOT/instant cast -reliant teams, it might end up being a worthwhile metagame choice to head into Blade's Edge with a team specifically tailored against that type of opponent.

I suspect a lot of the LOS issues there are the result of the novelty of the Arena, though. In a casual/fun arena match, I'm sure we've all been in the situation where a teammate drops off the bridge, attempting to escape an attack, and falls out of LOS right before you were about to land a heal, or CC an enemy off of him. In an organized match, where players can rely on receiving specific support and have a strategy for positioning, I think you'll see less of that.

At least in beta not taking a rated game that you queued for cost you arena points.

I've noticed this too. It's pretty silly. We had a 3on3 game come up where we were up against 3 AP Mages and by the time they loaded on our screens the writing was already on the wall for our Druid (2 Rogues+Moonkin). There's no reason to have the damn sight range so short. This happens in Blade's Edge too but it's less noticeable because of the bridge.

In the Nagrand arena rogues can (or could last patch) hide around the edges and not get hit by the tornado. Only found this out because my PuG team mate was nowhere to be seen after I was 2v1'd. It took me a while to find him in ghost form.

I can see "stealthing until the other team gives up" or "stealth and hope the tornado's finish the opponent off" being used by some desperate people, especially versus classes who can't heal themselves.

Oh and I havent played Arena's much but so far I like Blades Edge, but maybe that will change with time. It would be great to see Arena's be similar to Starcraft with strategys always evolving and very scissors-paper-rock. (reaver drop anyone?).

Without a doubt, no advantage should be had by those with the absolute best in computer equipment/connection in this type of game.


However, I am somewhat confused by all those complaining about LOS issues/charging/pillars/tornadoes/etc... all these apply to the enemy as well.

Am I the only person who sees utilizing the environment as part of the general strategy/tactics in the game? Certainly breaks up the homogenous nature that many matchups become.

I think a fair criticism of the Blade's Edge terrain would be that a lot of the LOS issues and stuck-on-the-bridge issues you run across are completely random and unpredictable, which is bad if you're trying to build a competition based entirely on skill. This is the same reason why I'm against the tornado in Nagrand like most other people.

Yup, 1-2 min longer before they spawned would be an easy fix.

Utilizing the environment is all well and good when it makes sense, like ducking behind a wall or around a tree. I don't think having people become un-hittiable or un-healable because you're on different elevations makes much sense though. LoS around stairs and ramps and edges has always been pretty terrible in this game. Half the time the people going out of LoS aren't even trying to go out of LoS.

The fact that it applies to the enemy as well isn't really relevant. If WSG randomly got people stuck in a hole in midfield because of poor terrain design, it would affect both sides and still be annoying and poorly designed.

problem with blades edge as a warrior is a hunter can simply lay a frost trap between the two pillars and then just jump back and forth while you can't do anything. Combined with the stupid slow staying on even after the hunter has died or your outside the trap range makes it a nightmare if he has a good teamate.

Given that you lose arena points if you drop queue, maybe an important part of team formation strategy will be building something that isn't adversely affected by a particular map. Once again I guess this attests to the idea that 2v2 may be much harder to balance than 5v5.

Yeah, a priest and myself were doing that as part of our token strategy: we'd run up, I'd drop a trap, and we'd both hop on the pillar. Even against caster classes, it basically prevents them from getting in to my deadzone if I stand at the far edge of the pillar.

I've found most BEA fights to be outlast encounters (disc/holy priest + marks hunter team), simply because it's so easy to avoid being bursted down by using LOS. It's fun for me but I imagine it's a bitch for the other team =P

I don't get why people hate BEA so much. Sure, it's a pain in the ass for LOS for every class (fighting on the ramps is especially frustrating for Hunters) but I fail to see how that's a bad thing. Nagrand Arena is okay but the tornadoes make for some stupid element of randomness that shouldn't really be there. Blade's Edge is great because it's a harder arena to do better on, since it emphasizes player movement much more than running around a pillar in Nagrand does. Then again, it could just be that people hate BEA because it's hard, which is a notion I find greatly amusing.

Where do you draw the line between "hard" and "irritating"? Doing a math assignment while water drips on the back of your neck would be hard too, but I'd be much more likely to classify it as "incredibly irritating" than "challenging".

I'm sorry, I don't derive much satisfaction from learing to use what seem to be the stupider consequences of obscure game mechanics to beat people.

LoS is hardly an obscure game mechanic. Any game that involves ranged combat factors in LoS somehow, be it World of Warcraft or Quake. As hilarious as it is to fight people by standing 20 yards from one another with no cover in the way, that doesn't seem like a very appealing Arena to me. Well, I suppose it is if all you want to do if you hate the concept of moving while fighting.

LoS isn't obscure. The fact that you encounter LoS errors just because you're on a ramp is. No one would predict it without actually having played WoW and tried shooting off a ramp, because it makes no sense at all (ok fine, I should have said counterintuitive or exploitative instead of obscure). Losing LoS because someone ducked around a corner or into a hut or behind a pillar makes sense. Losing it because someone happens to have a ramp between you and him at a certain angle, or the edge of a platform at a certain angle, makes no sense at all, since you very obviously have line of sight to each other - the game just arbitrarily claims you don't.

Sorry, this isn't use of cover, because there is no cover, it's just shitty geometry. Quake had a few questionable LoS issues, but nothing close to how bad WoW has it.

I've done a bit of arena matches between my pathetic connection dropping me every 5 minutes and what my perception of the arenas is this:

Nagrand is about equal footing for everyone, potential for range and keeping out of line of sight if you need to.

Blade's Edge seems biased heavily to ranged. Speaking as a warrior, I have about a 0.00% (repeating of course) chance of successfully attacking any ranged class on pillar without a healer as they have the high ground and virutually infinite amounts of time to shoot at me and I can do nothing in return. And a frost trap makes the jump impossible. Other options are to wait and hope they get bored and AFK out or risk jumping down. LOS issues exist but I'm incapable of winning and can only hope at best for the tie if the opponent doesn't make a serious judgement error.

Not sure how much of this is warrior PvP woes but I do like Nagrand because I have options if I get forced into a bad position compared to nothing availible seemingly for BEA.

A bit OT but I find it a bit sad that when I go look for optimal PvP gear as a warrior and compare to what I use now there is a delta of about 800 HP (a good chunk but smaller than I'd expect) and about 200 more off a MS crit or so, and compare to how poorly I do now because of poor PvP skill realizing that those deltas won't help much. Insta-gib got old in 10 minutes in Quake 2 :(

As a healer, I find BEA extremely irritating when people don't know what they're doing (i.e., pug skirmishes) but it's not quite as bad when you bring a group and a plan. Still, the ease with which LOS breaks on the ramps and staring straight down at someone gets old.

I agree that the random tornado has no place in a skill-based contest. It would be a damn shame if a great matchup was decided by a freak storm appearing on top of you.

Blizzard should solve the problem of pets always taking the "correct" way to a certain point, not jumping right after you. As an Affliction- Warlock, I really like those "kiteable" designs. The maps have to be played completely different of course. But with 2 afflocks, kiting people LoS is hell of a fun and also quite hard to do. The 2 spots only available by jumping there are great spots for healers as we discovered - it's a shame that fear can't make you jump of the bridges and those places anyway, it would be so much more fun for priests.
If you were forced to assign classes/speccs to a certain area as "they rock in here!!!111", what would you do ?

While the Arena is a step in the right direction, the difference to me seems to be akin to removing one of the inflatable bumpers in bowling so you can gutter ball on one side... The mechanics of PvP get picked up pretty quickly by everyone that actually fights and skill tops out at a pretty low level* so hit points and damage output make more difference.

The tornados themselves seem to be a non-factor if you are watching (and don't spawn until 1-2 minutes in?), and if you aren't you deserve to lose anyway.

*- compared to say, Quake and derivitives.

I have not ran these maps enough to come to a judgement, but ever since the first three BG maps, I have felt Blizz PVP map design is really weak. For the Arena's you want to have some sort of obstacles and ways to manipulate the match through terrain. Map skill has long been a stable of being a good PVP'er at any particular game. But it can easily go to far, once you get into subtle borderline exploit type things where you stand on a tiny particular spot to force LOS to act a certain way or to prevent certain abilities from functioning when it otherwise would be logical to expect them to.

A position should always have multiple ways to attack it, once you set up a spot that always forces the same strategic choice once you get there, you have really devalued the whole counter system WoW tries to builds into its combat.

Ideally, for instance in a 2v2 you would want the same 2 people to win a match as if they would encounter each other in the game world. If certain teams are only winning because of map tricks (even if both sides know them) or by the maps favoring certain classes I think you have a comprised system.

We'll see how things pan out in BC, when teams are running and we have some real feedback. Just in practice games, I've seen some real issues with LOS healing in BEA. Casters need room to kite / run. I agree with one of the posters above. It's really frustrating that there are so many objects to hide behind. Hunters have it easy in either. All of their attacks (basically) are instant. Meaning they can jump out, hit you for 2k + and run back behind a pillar. It's pretty lame right now. That class is very, very dominant in arena PVP.

..but at 70, in both BEA and NA, I'm sure prep Rogues and insta-gib Mages (POM) will be pretty unbelievable, even with more stamina and resilience geared players. Blizzard has said they want less burst PVP and more thought-out strategy. But there are some classes which remain incredibly powerful even at 70, with the ability to drop anyone from 100% to well less than 50% in 2-3 seconds. Assist trains are going to be pretty common. Back on topic: That's really where LOS starts playing a bigger role. Anyone who has to stand & cast for a few seconds will be at a disadvantage in BEA and prefer NA, with melee having a preference for the opposite. Giving them more places to hide.