Man, is this another warlock thread that quickly devolves to senseless angst about relative spec performance?

Well I do hope there's no senseless angst on my behalf; I have tried very hard to provide reasoning and in game observation for all the opinions I have shared. I think there's enough enough there to take something out of it.

Unfortunatly though some people seems to get very tied to their spec, and dont want to hear about other specs being good or better. Maybe with the relative cheapness of respeccing in TBC more people will try out some new stuff.

At least there's a thread here about warlocks! ;) I have learned alot about my new favourite class on EJ forums, this thread in particular. Burning Blade was down again last night during my allocated playtime but I did manage to get from 53 to 55 in four hours on Tuesday with my new felguard. I admit I miss some of my affliction stuff but Demo plays really differently than the affliction lock and it's nice to have the option of different viable builds.

Yeah, I'm a little down about my priest these days.

Yeah, my comment was more of a "soft factor" statement than saying that affliction "can't" put out the damage in 5 mans. In my particular case, at least in all the instances I've done so far, we typically have 1 druid tank, 1 holy priest, and very hard hitting dps'ers (a pure destruction lock and a fire mage, typically, or a shadow priest with well over 600 shadow). Somtimes it's a little more varied than this but we still almost always have 3 dps + tank + healer. Usually the pull style is that the main tank will tank 2-3 things, we'll CC one (for the larger pulls) and dps train assist some main target.

As affliction, again, *with the groups that I run with*, the problem I was having was:

Select off-tanked target 1 (not the main dps target, as I've found it will be dead before I get more than 2-3 dot ticks off on it), apply dot sequence, switch to off-tanked target 2, apply dot sequence, repeat as neccessary. Then switch to nukes (affliction spec with bane and shadowburn, ofc) on whatever is still breathing.

Does it work? Sure. But I did have a couple of runs where the feral druid tanks were almost out-dpsing me, and the mages were above me by a large margin. We're all comparably geared for our class. These are 5 mans, so that's not really a big deal, but like I said in the previous post, I just didn't feel like I was contributing as much as I could have.

Nuking as affliction (even with bane) is just worlds apart from nuking with deeper destruction talents (which is to be expected), mainly ruin and a smattering of +cr. With my gear, affliction non-crit SBs are getting me 1200ish bolts with very little crit chance, and smaller crits when it happens. With destruction, incinerate crits much more frequently (gear swap + 8% from talents in destruction) and hits like a truck, especially when the fire mage is around (3200+ crits on a very regular basis, and I've had soulfire crit from almost 6k on 5 man bosses). I feel like a MUCH more significant contributor now that I went destro, and have had very little problems with downtime while grinding solo, as I mentioned in the above post.

Don't get me wrong -- affliction rocks, and (as some others have said) we should be very happy that each of the three trees is not only viable, but each also give a very different and unique playstyle. That's about all we can ask, really =)

I see it as:

Affliction: pure solo grinding/questing nirvana, 0 downtime, "ok" in 5 mans but nothing particularly spectacular.
Demonology: pure solo grinding viability, very solid in 5 mans, but can be a bit tedious (send pet, dot/drain, repeat). The "tedious" part is just how the spec seems to me, YMMV.
Destruction: suffers downtime problems which can be heavily alleviated as described in previous posts, utterly fantastic in 5 mans (including every 5 man boss fight I've seen if the tank is decent), lots of flexibility if DS supplements the build.

Just wanted to clarify -- I wasn't claiming that affliction "cannot compete" in 5 mans, I'm just saying it requires a very particular setup and group composition to do so (in my opinion) and neither of the (other) two trees have that drawback.

Just my $0.02.

Anna

No, I don't think so -- the topic is "leveling build pros and cons" -- and I think all of us have been pretty much on topic and are discussing the various pros and cons of various builds while leveling, which typically happens via solo questing/grinding and 5 man instances...

It's not angst, I'm not particularly attached to any particular spec. I, like probably a lot of warlocks, have respec'd a number times to try to tune a build for optimal fun & xp, and just wanted to toss in the fact that destruction grinding doesn't utterly suck the way that it used to and that some people still think it does, due to the mana efficiency of incinerate and some TBC items like the 1up mushroom.

Cheers,
Anna

Anna - do you have a link to your 70 destro build? Now that I've been 70 a few days and solo quests are winding down, would like to try a destro build. Its crazy with how much gold you can farm in an hour, you can try out half a dozen specs a week no problem.

Does the Power Infused Mushroom crit sometimes when it returns mana? Just curious, as I have the health version of it and I've come to really like the 378 healing crits that go off sometimes.

Heavy affliction builds don't perform favorably in situations where dots don't last full duration? Stop the presses.

5 mans are so dependent on who you play with, its futile to try and argue some sort of "best practices: the 5man warlock spec." I've been happy with 37+ affliction/21 destro. It lets me crank out nukes with bane, devastation, ruin, imp SB- it lets me use darkpact/instant howl of terror, and it gives me the dot power when I can use it. The only downside is less incentive to make crazy fire waves along the ground.

As a related question to the Pros of Affliction build:

Is Improved Drain Soul working correctly? Does the Drain Soul have to deliver the killing tick or will you get your mana refund if the mob simply dies while you channel Drain Soul on it?

Neither!

You have to deliver the killing blow while you drain it. Doesn't matter what the source of the damage is, as long as it's yours. Pet's don't count.

I've not noticed it critting. I considered taking the health version due to fel armor (and in fact it'd probably be better for any spec with improved lifetap especially) but since I use it primarily for destruction grinding with a DS'd VW, I often kill mobs without losing any health and the gain would be wasted unless I worry about starting pulls with less than full life, and so forth. I didn't really feel like doing that and just letting the health ticks from DS refill health, so I took the mana one.

I'll have to pay more attention and watch for a crit on it.

Anna

Sorry to beat a dead horse... but I would really like to see more quantitative analysis. Everyone is proposing different builds, and qualitatively outlining the benefits. At the end of the day, though, it comes down to xp/hr when we're talking about levelling builds.
So: for those of you who recommend DS/Conflat, or non-interruptible searing pain, or other heavy destro builds, what is your xp/hr? How often do you have to drink?

Right now, everyone is arguing their opinions based on their experience, and I find it hard to truly compare builds w/o seeking some sort of statistics to back it up.

So I politely ask everyone who would like to offer a good build to include a quantitative section in addition to their qualitative explanation.

Thanks alot,
Nublock
<Boulderfist>

If you're counting on the mana return from Imp Drain Soul, you might consider using a macro such as:

/petfollow
/cast Drain Soul (Rank 1)

To help get the killing blow.

I can try to get some data for you tonight. Heavy destro grinding for 30 minutes or so on some ogres or something like that should be sufficient, yes? If you have a particular area or mob type that you've found particularly useful to measure on, let me know.

I'd be surprised if it was on a par with affliction/demo grinding, but I can yield some numbers. I gave qualitative reasons for my spec because I'm not neccessarily going for sheer xp efficiency, but rather for (a) a nice change from affliction grinding after being affliction _forever_ =) and (b) just trying to point out that grinding destruction is possible without lots of downtime.

I'm glad that folks like DP/Ruin -- I'm sure it's a great spec. However, I raided as SM/Ruin for a really, really long time at level 60 and it's nice to have a chance of pace. Like I said, "soft factor" value, perhaps.

I don't know what my xp/hr is. I was doing probably 15-20 single-pull ogre mobs (like those in and around Nagrand) non-stop before needing to pause at all, and when I'd pause it'd typically be to tap to full mana and cannibalize/bandage, not actually drink. Fel armor and Aeges makes lifetap + bandaging so much faster. I'll try to get some actual data up here after tracking xp gain tonight.

Anna

I just respecced a couple levels ago to 29/21/11 (or that's what it will be at 70, with 4 points in Shadow Mastery), and it's pretty much the same playstyle as before (mostly standard draintanking) but having shadowburn is great, I use to finish off just about every pull now, and my xp/hour has increase noticably. Although I think I could do better if I pulled more mobs at once.

Questing in Shadowmoon Valley and Netherstorm has been amazing since I realized I could sac a demon for a buff and then enslave a world demon. I've been surprised by how much damage/aggro some of those demons can put out.

Am I the only one having a damn hard time getting away from the felguard? I leveled affliction 60-63, then went deep demon all the way through 70, basically soloing everything along the way (was ahead of my guildmates, recent horde reroll) - and I found I was able to solo even con 3 man elite group quests with the felguard. I was blown away by how easy it also is to grind with him (when he's *fully* talented). Also, a new epiphany for me was the pet healing talents, 2/2 goes a long way towards Flaadhun's survivability, and is a major factor in his penchant for soloing even con hard hitting elites. Most extreme case was me soloing the last elephant in the nesiwary chain. I don't think it takes any skill to do that per se, but that is pretty seriously OP if you can do that in my opinion.

Yah, once you get the Felguard talented, he is a Beast. Imp Health funnel is good if you like to solo group quests.

On another note, my Felguard is named Haadhun, very similar name to yours.

As an Orc I find that skipping Imp Health funnel and just using Blood Fury and my +damage trinkets in hard sports works wonders for keeping my pet up in those elite quests.

Myself and another warlock in my guild both have felguards named Haadhun. Their name-generation algorithm for felguard names is REMARKABLY poor. :(

Anna

I realize this is not the type of levelling the thread was aimed at, but every time over the past two year I've tried to grind up my level ~40 warlock as affliction, I've found myself in a state of constantly mounting aggravation due to the global cooldown. I would usually grind by slapping a Corruption, Siphon Life and CoA on each of several mobs while rotating a voidwalker and drain lifes.

Since all the dots were instant, I would go insane waiting for the GCD between casts. I'm in awe of the warlock such as the OP who are apparently able to use instants continually for hours like this while levelling.

Since my lowbie lock should have a free-respec from 1.13, I'll look into giving him a spec with cast times so I actually play him :S Regardless of efficiency, I don't think I'll ever be able to play an affliction lock if it involves repeatedly applying instant dots.

We've got 2 Flaadhuns. Fortunately the other warlock is spec'ing back to deep destro once he hits 70.

Granted, my felguard and I are lvl70 now, but we've been running crypts with some guildies lately for fun - I've been topping meters with 45% group damage, with my pet doing another 20% or so (no healers just a shadow priest), my pet tanks the floating boss every run, and my pet out DPS's our hunter. I honestly have no idea what it's going to take to turn me away from demonology.

I'm sorry, that came off a lot more caustic than was necessary. It wasn't even in response to your post per se, but more the ad nauseum posts we get here about how sweet our respective builds are. It's an unfortunate side effect of having several viable specs that all perform comparably.

I think it's pretty difficult to also perform a purely quantitative analysis of xp-efficiency, because as far as I have experienced there is no "leveling in a vacuum." Granted, this is a pvp server and I get distracted. Also, there are a lot of soft factors to consider. I gain almost 10% mitigation by switching to Necro-knights garb and demon armor. I lose a chunk of spellpower/crit and +20% health gains, which is huge for efficiency. The difference might give me enough time to control a fight with a rogue/hunter, which might save me a hell of a lot more time running back to my corpse.

Seriously, warlocks are pretty well off, and you could level 1-70 without spending a single talent point. Anecdotal evidence is pretty much all you're going to get during the leveling process, because blizzard has presented us with a wide range of quests to do and a lot of unique environments to do them in. I'm a heck of a lot more interested in the level 70 picture... 40affl/21 destro vs 21demo/40 destro, etc.

Leveling specs always end up like those ashtrays you made for your dad in elementary school art class: crappy, lopsided and he doesn't even smoke so you're not sure what you were even doing.

-fres "Anna Nublock" fres