Should rogues just get two attack power per point of strength?

Lord BEEF · 01/18/07, 12:57 PM

The problems as I see it:

As a druid it's annoying to see the majority of leather items having agility and attack power instead of strength, since we have talents that work just off of strength, so this gear is subobtimal for us. On the other hand, rogues can't get much use out of items that are strength based, so leather dps gear has to be custom made for each class, and nothing is worse than getting feral loot when you don't have a druid (some would argue that getting feral loot at all is the worst, but I digress).

But what if rogues got 2 attack power per strength? They could then change the items to match this. For example

Nomad's Leggings
Binds when picked up
Unique
Legs Leather
256 Armor
+33 Agility
+49 Stamina
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases attack power by 66.

Could easily be changed to:

Nomad's Leggings
Binds when picked up
Unique
Legs Leather
256 Armor
+33 Strength
+33 Agility
+49 Stamina
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 70
Requires The Consortium - Revered

If rogues got 2 attack power per point of strength, this item would give them the exact same amount of attack power unbuffed. Feral druids would get 15 more attack power than before, and ~16 more +healing if they pick up the nurturing instinct talent.

In addition, changing rogues to get two attack power per point of strength would mean that the new item gives them 6 more attack power than before if they have blessing of kings, they'd also get another ~80 attack power from a strength of earth totem, and then some more attack power from whatever base strength you have. I'm of the opinion that rogues need a bit more damage so I see this as a good thing.

To me this seems like it would improve things for both classes while preventing item rot.

I can only see a few possible downsides:

The developers want agility to be the primary stat for rogues.

This could be seen as making strength just as good as it. However you could argue that they'd inadvertantly already made "attack power" the primary "stat" for rogues. (Does agility still give more value to a rogue per item budget? Obviously you want items to have both of course).

This would let druids do more damage and they do too much already.

Whether or not druids do too much damage already (I don't think this is the case, but there's not enough data out there to make conclusions. Druids are typically filling a tanking or healing spot due to higher demand for those). However, even if you agree that this would make druids do too much damage, you'd be wrong since druids will get strength itemization eventually for each slot. The current system just makes it take longer to do so, and with worse selection.

I'm a rogue, don't take my damn loot

Your guild could still (and likely should) let rogues get dps leather first. Changing the items to be good for both classes doesn't change this.

Does anyone really see a reason why Blizzard shouldn't just do this?

Gwaihir · 01/18/07, 1:08 PM

uh, what? I thought 1 point of str/agi = 2 points of AP = 4 points of ranged AP, not the reverse.

• Andeh · 01/18/07, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Nejyn

I think the argument was that rogues would have too much AP and be overpowered. Which still seems likely, as strength doesn't cost as much in the item budget as AP.

Actually in item budgeting, 1 STR is valued the same as 2 AP. Meaning STR costs more.

People have been asking for this change forever. The argument that was used to counter it before was that "then Rogues will have too much AP and wtfpwn everyone." Well, that doesn't hold water anymore, since Blizzard is now creating lots of items with AP/AGI/STA. I can't see any reason why with the current loot dynamics that Rogues shouldn't get 2 AP per STR, short of laziness by the Devs, or a plan to hold us back while buffing ferals (which I really doubt is the case).

Edit: No Gwai. For Rogues, its 1 STR = 1 AP; 1 AGI = 1 AP = 2 RAP. For Druids, its 1 STR = 2 AP; 1 AGI = 1 AP. That's ignoring the AGI : Crit/Dodge differences too (which also favor Druids).

Copernicus · 01/18/07, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by Nejyn

I think the argument was that rogues would have too much AP and be overpowered. Which still seems likely, as strength doesn't cost as much in the item budget as AP.

2 Attack Power = 1 point in either Strength or Agility, under the current item budget.

A lot of loot in TBC is designed around attack power and agility. Lord Beef's point is that if Rogues got 2 attack power per a strength, all that loot could be switched to strength/agility and be more valuable to Druids and be the exact same in value to Rogues.

I can see the argument of changing how attack power works to improve the options for Feral Druids. However, at every armor level each class is divided up in how they want their optimal DPS gear. At the same time, leveling gear is almost always good enough for most classes if it's loaded up on attack power. Druids are the only class that gets tweaked around when they go from strength to attack power. I guess I see the point, but it's a pretty drastic change to how itemization works, and one that isn't all that crucial. Hunters were the only other class that had their stuff changed so dramatically, and I felt that was because their loot needs were so different than other classes that Hunter-rings/amulets/capes were almost useless for anyone else. A feral druid item is still good for a rogue or Enhancement Shaman. A rogue item is still good for a feral druid. A hunter Agility ring was something the other classes looked at as a joke.

Rennoko · 01/18/07, 1:21 PM

1 Strength is valued the same as 2 AP because in a lot of classes it translates to just that. Warriors/pallies/shaman all get 2 AP for every point of strength.

If they wanted to give rogues 2 AP per point of Strength, they would need to take away the 1 AP they get per point of agility. Otherwise we would see rogues running around with retarded amounts of AP.

Ahiru · 01/18/07, 1:30 PM

Rogues have been pushing for such a change on Blizzard's forums for months. Reasons why I think Blizzard might have chosen the route of agi/ap itemization instead:
1) Keep agility as the rogue's primary "base stat." Yes, AP is worth more DPS per item-level, but having strength be more important to a rogue than agility would seem "out of character" to the RP crowd and possibly spark complaints from there.
2) The other class that benefits from agi/ap itemization is hunters, for whom it helps to offset the rap/agi nerf. They may have wanted any itemization change to benefit at least two classes so that people wouldn't cry "Why are you buffing class X?"

Edit:

Originally Posted by Rennoko

If they wanted to give rogues 2 AP per point of Strength, they would need to take away the 1 AP they get per point of agility. Otherwise we would see rogues running around with retarded amounts of AP.

Putting agi and AP on the same item will result in the same amount of rogue AP as if they'd given us 2 AP per str and kept itemizing str/agi. So obviously Blizzard doesn't think that amount of AP is retarded any more.

• Andeh · 01/18/07, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Rennoko

1 Strength is valued the same as 2 AP because in a lot of classes it translates to just that. Warriors/pallies/shaman all get 2 AP for every point of strength.

If they wanted to give rogues 2 AP per point of Strength, they would need to take away the 1 AP they get per point of agility. Otherwise we would see rogues running around with retarded amounts of AP.

You mean like Druid levels of AP? They get 2 AP per Str and 1 Per Agi in Cat form.

Edit: Why the hell is it showing me as a female undead mage/priest/whatever? My profile is set to male undead rogue. :(

Mordinm · 01/18/07, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Rennoko

1 Strength is valued the same as 2 AP because in a lot of classes it translates to just that. Warriors/pallies/shaman all get 2 AP for every point of strength.

If they wanted to give rogues 2 AP per point of Strength, they would need to take away the 1 AP they get per point of agility. Otherwise we would see rogues running around with retarded amounts of AP.

It's worth noting that 1 AP per agility and 2 AP per strength is exactly what cat druids get. In fact if you take HotW into account its effectively 2.4 AP per point of strength on your gear, and even a bit more after SotF. It's been this way for a while so simply having that much AP is not enough to break the class balance, though mechanics of druids and rogues are different enough that you can't really say 4000 AP for a druid will be the same as 4000 AP for a rogue.

• Andeh · 01/18/07, 1:38 PM

There is one theory why Blizzard won't do this, at least for a couple months. It is because right now most of the new TBC loot items that are big upgrades for Rogues are big because their old gear is typically Str/Agi/Sta with some Crit & Hit scattered around. Its a lot easier to get people excited about new items (and tolerate swapping out their old epics for blues) if they're seeing huge increases to AP.

I know I'd be holding onto my Deathdealer's a lot longer if I was getting full benefit from all its Strength.

• zeidrich · 01/18/07, 1:42 PM

I think that there is no reason to give rogues 2 AP per strength.

a) As noted, item budget-wise 2AP ~= 1str, so on new items, the lack of AP isn't as noticeable anyways.
b) Items with +str, and +AP would now be stronger in terms of AP gain for rogues, disrupting whatever balance they had before. For isntance, you could have +78 AP for the same item budget as +25 str, +50 AP, which would ultimately be 100 AP for a rogue who didn't have this AP potential before.
c) It creates a way to differentiate rogue DPS items from druid DPS items, as druids may often value str higher than rogues do.

They've increased potential AP to a point I assume they are happy with by more efficient allocation of item budget on new items.

If they were to increase it further by allowing str to give 2 ap I would assume that they would no longer be happy with the potential AP in the rogue and they would end up nerfing it some way, either by mucking with item values, or a nerf in skills, which I don't think anyone wants.

Rennoko · 01/18/07, 1:46 PM

If every item in the game a rogue could wear was only AP/Agil, and it was changed to STG/Agil, then yes, all the rogues would have the same AP. That isn't what i'm talking about. I am talking about the HUGE boost to AP rogue would see from items that they are currently wearing that have strength on them.

Take this set for example. http://www.thottbot.com/?s=deathdealer as the guy above me mentioned:

Since your only changing items with AP on them to be items with Stg on them, this set got a whole lot better for rogues. That isn't to say that there is not an equivalent set of items for rogues, that gives the same stats. All i am saying is that simply changing the formula and the items to translate AP--Stg wouldn't be enough, because rogues with strength on their gear now would see a boost to their AP with no negative effects.

Fellwraith · 01/18/07, 1:56 PM

It'd be an interesting bit of analysis to take a look at. I don't think it would be dps neutral, most likely it would be an increase for rogues.

A couple observations:
1) Enchantment choices would change. Crusader Enchants become incredibly valuable for rogue's mainhand, str or agi on your offhand might become a push at certain levels of hit/crit/AP.

2) SOE totems, BoK and UR would have some interesting scaling effects on DPS.

3) Probably not as big a deal later, but T2.5 (which was very heavy on str) would see renewed/extended life. I'd have to take a look at the tiered armor analysis again to see if any pieces would become better than t3.0

4) It'd put more emphasis on armor for rogues as opposed to being primarily weapon focused. That will lead to some strange weapon choices, particularly for subtlety rogues. E.g. You may take a lower dps weapon just because it's got a 0.2 second slower swing speed. Today about 50% of my rogue's dps comes from AP, 50% comes from my weapon (unbuffed).

Lord BEEF · 01/18/07, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by zeidrich

I think that there is no reason to give rogues 2 AP per strength.

a) As noted, item budget-wise 2AP ~= 1str, so on new items, the lack of AP isn't as noticeable anyways.
b) Items with +str, and +AP would now be stronger in terms of AP gain for rogues, disrupting whatever balance they had before. For isntance, you could have +78 AP for the same item budget as +25 str, +50 AP, which would ultimately be 100 AP for a rogue who didn't have this AP potential before.
c) It creates a way to differentiate rogue DPS items from druid DPS items, as druids may often value str higher than rogues do.

They've increased potential AP to a point I assume they are happy with by more efficient allocation of item budget on new items.

a) The AP would be exactly the same unbuffed for items. You'd only see an increase from base strength, blessing of kings, and strength of earth totem and strength based potions. This change would give rogues a bit more damage, mostly just when buffed. Do you disagree rogues should be doing more damage in raids than they are now to make up for their lower utility?
b) The solution to this is to simply not make items with strength and attack power. Currently there are a grand total of two, one of which is a green.
http://thottbot.com/beta?f=a&name=&s...=&c5=gt&v5=&e=
(The druid sets were changed from the ones shown there).
c) I see this differentiating the loot between classes as a bad thing. Currently is a strength/stamina item drops and you have no druids it goes to waste (or maybe shamans I guess, but you get the point). If an agility/attack power item drops, a druid can pick it up but if they already have a strength/agility item they won't want it. Having items that work for both classes is like using a token system in that either class can use it well and your dkp or whatever can sort out who gets it, but someone gets something good.

Apate · 01/18/07, 2:01 PM

Another issue, while you may or may not want to consider it, is that I think a lot of warriors would start using [even more] leather for DPS gear.

while that isn't a route I particularly care for, it could cause problems in some places.

Tyvi · 01/18/07, 2:16 PM

I didn't follow Druid DPS itemization much apart from the Tier sets so is there actually lots of Druid gear that has Str, Agi and NO increase in armor value? With the threat nerf and just looking at our tanking gear, the theme of itemization seems to be Bear/Cat hybrid items and if that is still the case then Rogues might not like the idea of homogenizing Druid and Rogue leather. Because what use is the increased AC value for a Rogue that wants to maximum DPS?
If there is dedicated Druid DPS leather ignore this. ;)

Originally Posted by Andeh

That's ignoring the AGI : Crit/Dodge differences too (which also favor Druids).

Eh, that got changed? EDIT Nvm me, I just realized I was comparing the AGI:Dodge ratio of Rogues with the AGI:Crit ratio of Druids in my mind which is obviously not smart. /EDIT

Btw, remember the Silithus bugs (the elite ones)? Those had a debuff that reduced your Str by 50%. I always wondered why we didn't see more of those debuffs in raid environments because stuff like that could be tweaked to let Rogues do more damage than other melee classes in relation. Hey, there has to be an advantage to the drawback of only getting 1 AP per Str, right? :)