I have been looking for some solid numbers on what exactly "high threat" means in Lacerate's case
Does anyone have an analysis?
If not what is the suggested method to detirmine this value by experiment?
The questions I see are...
When is the bonus threat generated - on application like sunder, or as the ticks occur?
If its "on application", does it generate threat on mobs immune to bleeds?
What threat modifier is applied - a static +threat (ala Maul) or a damage multiplier?
How much total threat does a Lacerate generate?
The method that i'd use would be something like:
Generate a rage bar against another mob, then move on to the test target
Clear damage meters
Lacerate the mob and turn off auto attack, allow the lacerate to run its full time
Have a DPS type with no threat mod do steady damage till they pull agro
Capture meters, kill mob
Repeat a few times to get a good value
(it may be better to stack to 5 and then divide the damage by 5 to get a number less impacted by "overkill")
Adjust this to take out the actual bleed damage, that should give an idea of the bonus threat per application (BT)
Apply a single lacerate
Have the DPS immediately hit for the BT value
If they pull agro the threat is probably applied with the damage
Repeat test 1, but mangle the Mob first, adjust the results to take out the mangle threat and check for differences (if there is one of around 30%, threat is probably a multiplier)
Anyone see any holes in the method?
Better to get in right up front as its going to be a pain to do, so i'd like the results to be valid
I think warriors have no threat modifier (as long as they are not in defensive). So thats your best bet for a melee.
Have 'em punch the mob or use some crappy low DPS daggers, that way you won't overshoot the BT too badly and will get far more accurate results.
Alternatively, just use anyone. We KNOW the threat modifiers of the classes now, so it should not be too much trouble to work out the unmodified BT =).
Anyway, good luck on your search =).
I do remember seeing some threat values of Lacerate but I couldn't find them anymore (might have been on the official boards even), but I do remember that one application of Lacerate was less threat than a Sunder.
Testing it as we speak.
I'll have some solid data in 1h.
My way of testing:
put mangle on the target apply 1 lacerate while keeping mangle up, and see how much damage the other guy needs to do to get the aggro.
apply 1 lacerate, and see how much damage the other guy needs to do to get the aggro.
repeat test 1 and 2 with 2/3 lacerates to see if that changes anything.
[e]Server is goofing up, no testing for me today :(
Turns out this is a lot harder to co-ordinate that i'd have thought...
Will try and 2-box it over the weekend
Sorry; no formal testing...but the DoT appears to have no threat component...or very very litte.
Something which could be interesting:
Bleed immune mobs, get stunned by pounce, even though the icon doesn't appear, no damage is done and the words 'immune' float above there heads (tested on undeath in nagrand).
Inferals in Hellfire who go 'immune' on bleeds to didn't seem to get any agro from lacerate.
(which seems to suggest that all the aggro comes from the bleed part)
It's hard to find a good sparring partner, else I would have been able to give more info.
Lacerate Threat Measured
EDIT: Added Quote in case someone can't view the WoW boards at work or something. :P
Thanks for the quote - no wow forum access at work
So the "base" threat adjust is 106 to get 154 after bear form + feral instinct (not that you can do it without bear form) - or is this kind of threat modifier totally fixed and not subject to bonuses?
Does naturalist actually add to the damage? - i guess its reasonable to assume so even though this is a DoT not a melee attack
The question of "instant threat" followed by normal DoT damage or DoT Damage that does a threat multiple is still not fully resolved.
Working backwards from 154 threat:
Subtract out bear + feral instinct = 154 / 1.45 = 106
Divide into base damage (assuming naturalist bonus) = 106 / 170 = 1.62 (not a convincing multiplier given precident of 1.75 and 2 ...)
The numbers seem to agree with the "feel" i have worked out for post-66 bear threat:
Mangle is our best TPR for any reasonable combination of bear form AP and Mob Mitigation
(according to my spreadsheet - which i will try and host somewhere for checking and input - at 30% mitigation mangle is better down to bear AP as low as 300)
Lacerate is next most effective up to the point of a 5 stack, rolling is good, but more than 1 extra lacerate per 15sec is poor
Note: for "total" threat generated Swipe is better value when hitting 3 mobs (at the 1000 AP mark) - but the actual threat against the main target will be weaker - but can be almost certainly be boosted with maul as you will have the rage with 3 mobs.
Maul generates around 3x the threat of the melee swing it replaces and as yellow damage is not subject to glancing etc. I typically make normal melee swings for rage generation during the first few seconds - but once agro is initially established and rage incoming is steady switching to maul on the DPS target is usually fine.
The next question is which Idol to use when tanking.
The three that come to mind are
Brutality: +50 maul/swipe damage
Wild: +58 mangle damage
Ursoc: Increases periodic damage done by Lacerate by 3 per application
Some meaningless math follows:
Assuming infinite rage.
Brutality adds 50 damage per global cooldown or 33 damage per second.
Wild adds 58 damage per mangle cooldown or ~10 damage per second.
I have a hard time parsing the Ursoc description. Does the per application text mean 3 damage per outstanding application on the mob? Does it mean 3 damage immediately? Does it mean 3 damage per tick? Does it mean 3 damage divided among the ticks? That coupled with not being sure whether threat is built up over time or applied instantly has led me to keep this one in the bank.
All that said, I'm almost certain that Blizzard has designed this thing in such a way that it is useful. I just can't ferret out the method behind the madness.
3 per application...
2 stack - 6 more per tick
3 stack -9 more per tick
4 stack - 12 more per tick
5 stack - 15 more per tick
its just like the rip one.
I use an addon called Chronometer that provides timer bars for HoTs and DoTs. It's what I use to monitor my lacerate stack. What I have found, is that if I try to refresh a lacerate stack when there is less than 3 seconds left, it does not refresh the stack. So this lead me to push out that time to 5 seconds.
So question 1: Can anyone else comfirm my observation that your lacerate stack won't refresh if you reapply with less than 3 seconds left?
The more and more that I use lacerate, the less and less I like it. In addition to refreshing my stack with 5 seconds (1/3) of the time left, I'm also often frustrated by mobs dodging, parrying or blocking and ruining the stack.
The only problem here is that those calculations assume that the dot component does 1:1 threat (1 damage = 1 threat), which is never confirmed, ether way, it's fairly obvious that lacerate shouldn't be your main move while tanking.
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