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Old 01/31/07, 5:14 AM   #26
suicuique
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Antonidas (EU)
Originally Posted by Zoro
Did it not cross your mind that Maestroquark might have meant 'your DPS as a final figure representing the sum toto of all effects' rather than the more obtuse 'your DPS as meaning the value of your non-crit average damage' you've just used?
Yes, it did cross my mind. In fact that was the reason for my reply.
Because crit does not get better the higher your "DPS as a final figure representing the sum toto of all effects" gets.

This behavior does not depend on a mystic DPS figure. Only on the ratio of AP to Crit.
That was my point.

You're just arguing the same point, but you seem to dislike his usage of the term dps.
Obviously my point was lost, if you think that my argument was the same.

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Old 01/31/07, 5:43 AM   #27
Zoro
Piston Honda
 
Murloc Rogue
 
Aggramar (EU)
If we lived in a hypothetical world of equal itemisation, perhaps. At any given point, the better of those two stats to raise is the one you've neglected.
When comparing the dps gains of AP/crit between two points, if the points differ in AP it's crit that offers the best gain and vice versa. This see-sawing balance goes all the way up, the relative value of each totally dependant on their current interplay.
So, in pure theory terms - yes Maestro is wrong.

However.
We don't live in that theoretical world. We live in one where Blizzard itemisation has heavily tilted the AP up and the crit down. The change to crit rating is just the latest effect reinforcing that process. Not since UBRS has it been realistically possible to gear upgrade crit without upgrading AP, and for the most part over favouring AP.
Now in TBC AP values are so high, and even the crit gear adds to them, that no matter where you currently are and what your current balance is - the higher up you are, the better that increase in crit will be compared to the AP one.

Ten expansions down the line, your AP will be in the 100,000s whilst you're still scrabbling for that 1% crit. It's the nature of the stats and itemisation.

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Old 01/31/07, 7:37 AM   #28
Kalman
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That's actually the beauty of crit rating.

*If* Blizzard chose the values properly (and I haven't done enough math to say that they did), X AP vs X crit rating should hold itself to be a very constant ratio, roughly equivalent to the true ratio in damage improvement for a rogue between the two quantities, at least a rogue who didn't neglect one stat or the other. At 60, the itemization ratio between the 2 was pretty solid; 2:1 AP:CR yielding 28:1 AP:crit% is essentially what marginal DPS improvements were showing the relative values to be. I suspect that the trend will hold at 70, where 2:1 AP:CR is suddenly 44:1 AP:crit%; we'll find that at typical rogue levels of AP and crit, a 44:1 ratio makes sense. Yes, AP will be higher, so 1% crit will be more valuable. But at the same time, 1% crit is suddenly more expensive, since it takes more rating to produce a single percent improvement; while your crit% will still be in the 20-35% range, your rating may be in the tens of thousands.

And suicique, crit does get better as your total DPS improves, including independently of AP in some cases; after all, crit scales base weapon damage and base ability damage, neither of which AP effects. A long time ago I derived equations for the nonlinear relationship of crit and AP; the equations certainly didn't tell the whole story of DPS, and didn't even give "correct" DPS answers, but they served to illustrate the point that the "ideal" AP:crit ratio changes as your base AP and crit change.

Actually, I should have added a third value to those equations, producing a surface; the value being itemization cost, we could look for the vector producing best DPS for lowest itemization cost, and aim for that ratio of AP:crit.

Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.

Clearly law school has done wonders for me.

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Old 01/31/07, 10:50 AM   #29
suicuique
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Antonidas (EU)
Originally Posted by Kalman
And suicique, crit does get better as your total DPS improves, including independently of AP in some cases; after all, crit scales base weapon damage and base ability damage, neither of which AP effects.
I think I mentioned that ;)

And yes, with increasing AP and drastically reduced crit percentages I did revalue *my personal* crit/AP ratio in term of gear effectiveness. And yes an increase by 1% crit did get way more valuabla to me (in respect to AP) than it was before, because of this.
I just took objection to a blanket statement like "crit gets more valuable with higher DPS".

crit is a scaling stat: it scales AP, weapon dmg and flat abilities

but AP is also a scaling stat (though to a minor degree): it scales crit and hit

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Old 01/31/07, 11:44 AM   #30
Glass
besides... it's all in the reflexes.
 
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Glassjaw
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Originally Posted by suicuique
crit is a scaling stat: it scales AP, weapon dmg and flat abilities

but AP is also a scaling stat (though to a minor degree): it scales crit and hit
Though so far in TBC both crit and ap are not scaling stats at all in a raid setting ;) Since they have effectively "capped" rogues with 'equip' AP+crit rating gear. It seems they want only our base stats to scale with raid buffs... seems this is how they are limiting our potential the most. Look at the tier 4 set, we get a total of 66 agility that is the only stat that scales with raid buffs (aside from stam) everything else is static (attack power and ratings). Tier 5 has 89 agility which is the only buffable stat and the rest are static stats. Puts a bit of a crimp on our "scaling".

Compare that to the druid (sorry best comparison) tier 5 set.
178 strength
128 agility
78 int
41 spirit

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Old 02/05/07, 6:53 AM   #31
Zoro
Piston Honda
 
Murloc Rogue
 
Aggramar (EU)
Originally Posted by Kalman
Actually, I should have added a third value to those equations, producing a surface; the value being itemization cost, we could look for the vector producing best DPS for lowest itemization cost, and aim for that ratio of AP:crit.
As depressing as it is - I did that for 1.12 to compare the surfaces produced for the various primary attacks at the time (BS/SS/Hemo) to validate my personal choice to give Hemo a go.

I *will not* sink as low as to update the speadsheet for TBC...

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