[Rogue] Is Expose Armor ever a better idea than Rupture?

drastic · 01/28/07, 4:53 AM

Was in a grp doing Black Morass tonite and we did not have a warrior (i.e. no sunder). I am Mutilate spec, so needless to say, I build CPs insanely fast. I was basically cycling 4-5pt SnD, 5pt Ruptures, and 4-5pt Evis. However, on the bosses especially, I got to wondering... am I better off using Expose Armor (to hopefully up my white dmg) or am I better off using Rupture and no EA?

I know EA has the added bonus of helping my whole party by increasing all physical dmg to the target... but how much do you guys think we're talking here? Is the dmg from reduced mob armor enough to make up for not having my 5pt Rupture ticking?

Again, I guess the main question is, does EA make THAT big of a dmg difference to where I'd wanna keep it up on lengthy fights and forego straight DPS finishers such as Rupture or Evis?

drastic · 01/28/07, 2:04 PM

If it's a dumb question, you can tell me ;)

elentari · 01/28/07, 11:11 PM

I played a mutilate / improved sap built rogue before switching to combat swords for PVE quest leveling, so I was in a similar position as in yours regarding 5-manning instances without sunder armors.

I have never been to Black Morris but I would assume it is a similar 5man zone to that in Mana Tombs / Underbog? In general trash mobs die too fast before a rogue can build another 5CPs to kill it. (Mutilate Mutilate EA Mutilate Mutilate ... the trash is dead).

For boss fights I would definitely think that EA makes sense - not in the case of really buffing your own DPS, but allowing the tank to generate more threat based on damage, and, if you have a hunter in the group, increase his/her DPS.

songster · 01/30/07, 6:40 AM

Expose Armor is an absolute no-no if you have a warrior tank, since it prevents them sundering. If you use it with a warrior tank, you may well be kicked from the party straight away

With other classes of tank, who don't rely on sunder as a threat move, then it's useful. Druid tanks especially, because Druid damage is mainly melee-based, so the tank's threat will scale with reduced mob mitigation. With a pally tank relying on holy damage, watch and use with care, as you'll be buffing melee DPS without buffing the tank's aggro generation.

• zeidrich · 01/30/07, 11:21 AM

As a paladin tank, I'd say EA is fine as long as you put it on the target that I'm focusing on. I rely on holy damage, but I earn aggro from white damage as well, EA buffs my white damage, and considering that melee classes already have 20-30% aggro reduction innate, are running salvation to drop them another 30% and requring 10% more than me to gain aggro, my white damage increase will help bridge the gap for the most part.

If you're already on the threshold of pulling aggro to start with, then it might be enough to worry about, but an EA means you're not doing another finishing move, which is instead spreading out the aggro over more time which is probably better anyways. A quick 5 point crit eviscerate at the start of the fight is more likely to pull aggro if you're on the threshold over a 5 point EA.

alienangel · 01/30/07, 11:58 AM

From the other thread:

38.1% DR on level 70 mobs, after I remove 2600 armor I'm left with 27% DR.

Untalented EA is -2050 armour I believe, I'm not sure how much that amounts to on the "average" mob in the example above, but I'll use 30% since it looks nice.

Theoretically that would take a well geared hunter with an ash from 630 DPS to 698 DPS, and his pet from about 61 to 70 DPS, so a total of +77 DPS. (not counting trinkets, procs, rapid fire, so pretty back of the napkin math here).

I imagine it would do a bit more for the rogue's DPS, and since you don't have a warrior tanking, either a lot for the druid tanking, or not much for a pally tanking.

So assuming you have a hunter (iffy), rogue (guaranteed) and druid (50-50), about 3.5*77 = +269 DPS, and additional thread for everyone (tank included).

Is rupture more than 269 DPS?

Anecdotally, rogues I've grouped with have been throwing up EA on bosses or longer-lasting trash in 5mans, and using whatever they want on everything else. Has worked out well.

Dralmoo · 01/30/07, 1:16 PM

Didn't they fix the whole EA/Sunder thing ages ago? 1.12 maybe?

alienangel · 01/30/07, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Dralmoo

Didn't they fix the whole EA/Sunder thing ages ago? 1.12 maybe?

On the "rogue review" patch EA and sunder didn't conflict for a while on the test realm, and even stacked. They removed it before the patch went live.

Pastasaus · 01/31/07, 3:53 AM

from what Ive seen so far EA are realy a finisher many people forget to use,
Im pretty sure it all comes from doing MC runs and you learing the hard way
(first time I was there after rerolling rogue was the time I learned to not apply EA on the giants,
wiped the raid and had some depressive laughs).
While leveling quite slow these days (IRL stuff as expected), I went hemo for the fun of it so I hopefully can go serious when I start to raid again, leaving my PvP build at home, and the eficciency of a 3 point impEA on trash for leveling is verry nice.
while using http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=iheoRx0obZZxMeooGRsxoh as my build I verry often get heavy-armor trash down
alot faster using a EA early (actualy get quite often hemo's over 1k with servo at 66).

At least It showed me how good it is when doing 5-mans with a druid tanking and Im fairly sure the armor reduction on bosses far outweights any damage rupture would do, even if its only you and the druid that is melee.

Ive actualy added the finisher to my hotbar (its still on another line then my other finishers so Im still scared I will do a raidwipe)
witch was the first time since I messed up in MC some 1,5 years ago.

Kink · 01/31/07, 4:39 AM

Seal fate Hemo or mutilate should definately use EA for bosses. You will have the CPs back in no time and the net benefit far outweighs the extra damage you would get from a rupture/Evisc/Envenom.

But its not only 5 man instances. So few rogues ever bothered to EA on Onyxia phase 2 for example. As long as the EA is down before she lands, you should have no problems. Of course a 40man raid would bring her down fast, but when you are only going with 10-15 it helps a bunch.

Rogues are a pure DPs class, but we can bring utility too, you just have to try harder! In instances for example, if you have improved KS its better to KS as soon as you can. Yes, this means you do less damage on the damage meters because you COULD have waited until you had full energy and used that 9% extra damage to boost your own DPS, but in the end the mob died before the stun wore off and it dropped 9% faster. In heroics the trash probably would survive an early KS, so its best to wait till you are full energy of course.

So the answer to the first post and thread title is.. yes. But you need to use your brain as for WHEN to use it over Rupture. If you have a druid tank and a hefty melee DPS group, then every boss who will live for 25+seconds should be getting an EA as your opener.

thejdawg · 01/31/07, 9:01 AM

If you have a druid tank, Mangle will also up rupture damage. Something to consider.