Replying to Kytrarewn.

Those look like unbuffed numbers, CD scales better with buffs than Mutilate does.

But even still, CD with improved sap is better damage than 41/20/0 Mutilate (no improved sap).

I have a Malchazeen, Guile of Khoraazi and an Emerald Ripper to play with. Even with the Mal/Ripper combo using a 41/20/0 spec versus a 13/41/7 with Mal/Guile the CD spec pulls away handily in the buffed DPS column.

Now in reality, I am currently a 30/24/7 combat dagger hybrid and I still own the damage meters and it is a fun spec to play (compared to straight combat daggers). I've had a warlock get close before on Prince (I run out regardless of enfeeble or not) and when he does beat me I will switch to 13/41/7 and destroy him (hopefully anyhows, lol).

Seal Fate alone isn't modeled in the spreadsheet but I figure I get an additional 30DPS from the extra evis (or rupture) finishers I can use. So 30/24/7 is better than 41/13/7 but less DPS than 41/20/0 and 13/41/7 (from my estimates anyhows). Plus I don't have to worry about poison immune mobs (and I do solo elementals a lot for gold farming for my mount).

Yes, I choose seal fate because I am sporting over a 60% chance to crit backstab in raids. It adds up nicely. I love how well seal fate and improved backstab work together.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihefox0oiZMIVb0AzZVM is the build I am currently using. I have been tempted to move a point to vigor from dagger spec for a bit better PvP ability since I do play on a 5v5 arena team. Nothing extremely serious or I would just respec weekly for it so for now I will keep the same spec.

Overall I like the build for pvp, pve and farming so far. If I didn't need improved sap I would probably try out 41/20/0 for awhile though.

I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum here as it has on other boards, but I was out of town for a while and haven't had the time to catch up on the latest rogue discussions here. In my personal experience, imp sap is unnecessary for heroics. I've completed all of the coilfang instances, all of hellfire, auchenai crypts and sethekk halls, and have been able to sap for them just fine without imp sap. There probably averages 1 or 2 occaisions per instance where I am unable to sap simply by virtue of the fact that unstealthing will proxy pull a second group, but it has never been a true sticking point. It's simply a question of first, being already running away by the time sap actually lands, and second, coordinating the pull such that the mobs have already switched targets by the time they would have been able to catch up to you.

That said, I could see this turning slightly differently in shadow labs (although I thought the same about shattered halls before doing it), but other than this I can't see that I'll be missing out.

I'm using Backstab over Mutilate.

At first I was appalled by the fact that Mutilate lost its positional requirement. I know I could have kept using it just like before but still I wanted to respec.
First I tried Combat daggers approach and then Subtlety. Turned out it was pretty nice.

Now I'm running my still leveling rogue with this spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Still missing a few points from Precision since I'm not 80 yet.
On Glyph department I'm using Vigor and Backstab, +10 extra energy and 20% more BS damage on incapacitated targets.

My normal rotation on mobs is CS - BS - BS - KS - BS -(BS) - (Evis)
The last two abilities are not often used since the BS after KS usually downs them. Sometimes on clothies / greens I might just do CS - BS - BS - Evis.
Relentless Strikes and Vigor give me enough energy so I can do 2 BS's in a row while regaining my energy while the mobs are stunned so I don't take any hits during the "fight".

Also HaT and Initiative are making sure that I decent amount of combo points. According to Recount addon over half of my BS's crit, giving me extra combo point.


Not saying this is better than Mutilate, just that it's working nicely enough for me since I get no downtime at all. Usually the only time I spend not doing anything is to stay hidden behind my enemy while waiting for my KS cooldown to go below 4s so I can start my rotation again.

Not sure if this will work that well on teams since most of the time I'd be sacrificing my 20% BS damage since the mobs aren't stunned.. either that or spend my combo points on KS instead of some other finisher.

Can't wait to see what happens in few months since I've heard that Mutilate extra poison damage is dropping from 50% to 25%. Also some Blizzard blue poster has said they're reworking Hemorrhage effect to be part of some other rogue skill.
Wouldn't mind if it was Backstab.