Just curious if there is some reason floating around out there why anyone would go combat daggers (i.e. backstab) rather than Mutilate (with DW spec) for PvE instancing. I feel like I've analyzed it pretty thoroughly and find Mutilate to be superior... but Im curious as to if there is something I've overlooked.

The CP generation seems to be vastly greater with Mutilate, and the dmg seems better as well... not really much more I can say :>

Just thought I'd ask you guys~

Sometimes mobs are immune to poisons (Elementals for instance), so Backstab may be superior in that situation.

Fair enough... but thats hardly a reason to change your whole spec right?

Depends on how pervasive the immunity is I guess. Look at the situation raiding mages have faced. Even though fire is superior DPS to frost, Onyxia, Ragnaros, Vael et al led to frost being the defacto PvE spec for a long time.

If mutilate is obviously better, then go for mutilate. I'm sure there was a reason not to spec premeditation. If I couldnt understand the point of this thread and it was pointing out how useless a backstab spec is; then, spec mutilate again :)

Combat Daggers would use Backstab over Mutilate.

Although Mutilate myself i can see that at level 70 with the crit reductions a combat dagger build may once again be preferable for pure DPS. Imp Backstab gives a solid +30% chance to crit and combat daggers will have an additional +5 to dagger crits - which is going to mean that at level 70 backstab will be over double (and nigh on tripple) the crit chance for Mutilate (say 55%+ vs. 20%+).

Add to this a 41 point combat build with a fast offhand for Combat Potency and the 10% static damage bonus of Surprise attacks and you will actually do more damage at 70th with combat daggers (not by much but run the numbers on Pf's spreadsheet and see 41/20/0 comes in slighter worse off damage wise than 15/41/5 if you put a decent 1.3 speed in the offhand - and this is against poisoned targets too). All that said Mutilate DOES generate a ton of CPs and is much more viable in PvP but, in answer to your original question, my answer would be that anyone who is doing pure PvE and in particualr raids where s/he can be behind the foe at all times will in fact do more damage at level 70 than an equivalently geared Mutilate build simply because they will crit tons more and have the benefit of combat potency and surprise attacks.............and more survivability to cleaves (with +dodge and parry)/ resilience to stuns + more HPs (from high tier combat talents).

You get two chances to crit on Mutilate to pick up the extra CP, and the difference in crit chance gets smaller the more crit you have. With 20% crit, Mutilate will crit 36% of the time. It's still behind Imp. Backstab with Dagger Spec., but f you bump the base crit up to 30%, it's 51% to crit -- if anything, better gear helps Mutilate more.

Totally agree and yeah good point about the crit rate on Mut - but good gear also helps heavy combat a ton as well - especially if it is AP. Mutilate was terrific at level 60 with 30% crit but as we're seeing it drops quite a bit as 70 approaches. I'm thinking Mutilate is still decent if 22-25% or so crit rate can be attained but much lower than that and it begins to lose its appeal. The newer rank of BS seems pretty decent (whereas the top rank of Mutilate seems a fairly marginal gain to me though i am yet to try it). Anyway - combat daggers at 70 will do more damage in theory (go take a look on the Spreadsheets) with the right gear (switch in a Warp Splinter's Thorn offhand for the Combat build)..........but it has a lot against it as i've mentioned (few CPs and kinda dull frankly).

With this in mind I guess the gist of my post is that Mutilate loses its appeal as you level and lose crit rate whereas the flat 30% crit in Imp BS actually gains appeal (35% if Dagger Spec too). No waiting until the mob is poisoned either and in the instances i have seen so far stuff is dying so fast you only get a few swings making that first one on an unpoisoned mob all the more compelling......

What gear level, buffs, and debuffs are you assuming? Is this for a boss fight or shorter fights? Do you care about non damage related abilities like improved kick or increased stamina?

Im specced 41/8/12 for mutilate/opportunity/ imp sap. With about 2k AP and 25% crit, against a mob or boss with 5 sunders and some poison on it (Raiding situation) Mutilate hits for anywhere from about 800 (No crits) to 2600 (Both hands crit, MH for 1600 offhand for 1000). Backstab crits more often, but for less damage. Also, its minimum damage is lower.

*Backstab generates 1 combo point. End of story.
Mutilate has somewhere close to 43% chance to generate 3 combo points (either hand crits, Seal Fate)
Otherwise, mutilate creates 2.
*Those extra combo points mean that I can drop a 5 point SnD, 5 Point Rupture, and 1-2 5 point eviscerates before i go back to SnD.
*The 10 energy from our 31 pt provides a buffer against misses, dodges, parries, etc, allowing you not to worry about waiting for an extra tick because of one miss.
*And +20% healing from all sources is beautiful. Bandaids tick for more. HoTs tick for more. Regular heals are godly. In my 2 kara raids so far (new to guild) I have ended stunlocking/evasion tanking frequently, and that extra healing is worth alot.

Compared to mutilate, backstab does less for more combo points, although it crits more. (60% vs 43%). you also generate more energy with a combat build. I prefer mutilate, because it does maintain raid-quality dps while allowing for a little more pvp potential than combat (i.e, cold blood/stunlocking).

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t8806-rogue_dps_spreadsheet/

Download it, put in your gear, your spec, and compare it.

With my gear, a combat dagger spec wins out with no problems what so ever.

To Guaire above, I get 2000+ backstab crits in a raid situation and I get them quite often (well, 62% of the time raid buffed to be more specific).

Because you need improved sap for heroics? Mutilate with opp/imp sap <<<< CD with improved sap.

That's somewhat true, Glass... I just went through the spreadsheet fucking around with a few potential builds, with pre-Kara gear, and mid-high enchants/sockets.

Here's what I found:

617.40 41/13/7

613.87 42/12/7 (one point of precision lost)

661.22 41/20/0

678.29 15/41/5

667.54 13/41/7

620.96 22/32/7

633.56 17/37/7

I was somewhat surprised by how well 22/32/7 did (has quick recovery, I love that talent) in comparison with 41/13/7.

Going to have to check that out at some point in practice.

I wouldn't forget Envenom in that equation. Especially with Enhancement shaman around, from which you can leach Stormstrikes - not that they like it, but hey - Envenom becomes really sexy. Get a bit lucky with poison procs, Ruthlessness and Relentless and you can do 3 4-5 Point Envenoms within one SnD-Go. Assuming imp SnD of course. I take 3.8k Envenom crits every day over eviscerates.

If there's something like a "soft" perception of a computer game, it's that a Mutilate build has relatively more energy to spare than a combat build. I felt always energy-starved with a Mace combat build with that Illhoof mace and the Shadow Lab offhand. Must be the greatly increased number of relentless procs.