(Please note, this is a constructive thread, I'm not interested in any complaints about how compulsion to spec for Improved Sap is wrong; I am operating under the premise that in the 5-man/heroic world, Improved Sap is mandatory (or, at least, its utility is unable to be matched with any attainable boost in damage from spec). Argumentation of the reality of this compulsion is less interesting, complaints about it are unappreciated.)
So.
Sap and Improved Sap have been buffed -- guaranteed full duration, Imp. Sap now has a 100% chance of triggering. It's useful, and in the heroic 5-man universe which all but requires all dps classes to serve as dps/cc it completes the rogue role.
Now, the question is, with this restriction, what are the good instancing specs? Without the constraint, vanilla combat specs (20-x/41+x/0 for SS builds, 15/41/5 for BS builds) and combat Mutilate (41/20/0) seem to be the dominant dps specs, but how does needing 7 points in Subtlety change that?
Dagger appears to be the winner, as a dagger spec does get damage out of the first five points in Subtlety from Opportunity, while the SS specs are left with MoD to fill tier 1.
Things are complicated by the Lobotimizer of TBC -- [Vindicator's Brand], as the easiest reputation grind mainhand -- being a sword.
So, what are we looking at for specs in the 70-to-raid ramp up? Personally, I was 41/13/7 prior to grinding Aldor rep, now I'm 13/41/7 but pondering where to go from here.
Most of us are using 46+x/5/7+y to personal taste, with the exception of one combat swords rogue without Improved Sap at all. Mutilate isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it gets you where you're trying to go, and somewhat importantly it allows you to have the combo points you need to always have decent-duration stuns on tap. I just can't see combat daggers having enough resources available to deal with the demands of smaller zones - you need to blow too much CP/Energy on utility attacks if you're doing your job.
I agree with wodin, pretty much doing the same spec. I like mutilate to a point, for whatever lack of punch it has, the generation of fast combo points (and poison procs) are very valuable to a rogue in the 5 mans. The one thing I really miss from being combat for so long is the big white damage. Seeing so many misses and small white numbers is jarring to say the least.
So is sap still viable in heroics? I know just starting out at 60 in the instances I had a few instances of mobs seeing me even with 5/5 mod and distract. Distract resists are quite annoying as well (making everyone wait while the cooldown ticks), for an energy cost you would think they could maybe reduce the cooldown a bit. Especially since there are so many 'eye see through stealth' mobs in instances now, I would think the content bypass wouldn't be nearly as big a deal. Maybe in the future.
I keep going back and forth between doing swords for grinding, but the prospect of what we refer to as "ghetto sap" keeps me from doing it...
I'm still combat daggers and don't really have a problem maintaining DPS while interrupting/gouging/whatever. 5/5 in combat potency and 4-piece bonescythe means I'm rarely at a loss for energy. I'll try to run damage meters against the other dagger rogue in my guild (mutilate build) next time we group, which could be next neverday.
My first character was a rogue, and waaaaay back in the day, you had to be imp sap specced just to get into a 5 man. I think it's really funny that it's come full circle after two years.
Anyways, improved sap is something that should just be given to rogues for free as a trainable skill. It's completely unneccessary and only hurts the class. Of course, then there's PvP balance...
Anyways, improved sap is something that should just be given to rogues for free as a trainable skill. It's completely unneccessary and only hurts the class. Of course, then there's PvP balance...
I agree 100%. Getting through many of the new five-man instances can be a pain without any crowd control, and there have been runs where I am the only one to thin the pull beforehand. If I didn't have the 2/2 imp sap things would be that much more painful. I think the present state of things harken back to my pre-MC days where I would whisper someone looking for members for Strat/Scholo/brs only to have the question "Do you have imp sap?" fired back at me - and subsequently being rejected due of lack thereof. Moving Improved Sap up the tree and bumping it to 100% were a step in the right direction, but as the limited CC it is even when improved it should function that way by default for all rogues.
I'd love to spec 41/20/0, but pigeonholed into having 7+ in subtlety solely for imp sap. I'm thinking of dropping 18 points in there to grab Serrated Blades (43/0/18), with beefed up MoD and camo on the way there (was running into issues near the end of Botanica last night where the mobs were seeing through my unimproved stealth even after distract). Hopefully I can get more optimal with my build once raiding is in full swing and five mans are forgotten.
I went into TBC as 10/41/0 sword combat, and am now 12/45/0 at level 66. And I have been thinking of switching. I just jumped in with sword combat without any great thought, because when I was specced that way (well, 18/33/0 or something, since it was pre-2.0) for raiding, I found solo farming ridiculously easy, so I thought this would be great for levelling.
But now.. I dunno.. I'm feeling that the solid sustained damage maybe isn't quite as good as the utility I'd get from more combo points via a Seal Fate or Hemo build. And like you, I'm definitely thinking Improved Sap is well worth the price of admission.
I look at it.. and I think, "gah, 7 points in Subtlety that don't boost my damage".. but yeah, I think I should stop worrying about how many % I can boost my sustained dps by with those 7 points, and just buy the damn talent.
So with my 57 points, I've been debating either something like 29/21/7 Most-of-Seal-Fate + Blade Flurry (obviously next 2 levels taking me to 31/21/7), or a 12/21/24 build with the crucial 12 points in Assassination, plus Blade Flurry (such a glorious soloing talent), plus Hemo with Prep and Dirty Deeds. I'm using twin GM swords which should be sweetly suited for Hemo, and although I found the damage a little anaemic when I specced Hemo for a few weeks prior to TBC, I've got more AP now.
I really think blizzard should make it possible to swap when mobs are in combat (in pve only, since it would be too imba in PvP), but then again it might be abused by some chinese way of sologrinding.
Anyway I have done most instances with 20/41/0 Combat specc, and I really feel gimped when I specced Multilate for a short time, most of the time the mobs die before I even get to use my combopoints (wich is one of the builds strengths). I have only glimsed to Heroic instances and they seem really hard (tried out steamvaults & slave pens some days ago and the mobs hit insanely hard, and we didnt get very far), and I think that imp. sap is more or less mandatory there unless you got 2 other cc'ing classes already - sad but true.
13/41/7 is what I plan on using. I cry loosing the points from Assassination, but its become one of the more reliable forms of CC since the heartbeat check has been removed unlike other forms of CC.
I have a feeling people are going to go into these places without it and most will respec shortly after zoning out. :D
I did exactly that after running steamvault the first time ,and it pisses me off that I have to use daggers and dump 7 points in sub to feel useful at all.
I really think blizzard should make it possible to swap when mobs are in combat (in pve only, since it would be too imba in PvP), but then again it might be abused by some chinese way of sologrinding.
Make in-combat sap possible as long as you are not currently being targeted by a mob or player, and it isn't abusable in PvP either.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Most of us are using 46+x/5/7+y to personal taste, with the exception of one combat swords rogue without Improved Sap at all. Mutilate isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it gets you where you're trying to go, and somewhat importantly it allows you to have the combo points you need to always have decent-duration stuns on tap. I just can't see combat daggers having enough resources available to deal with the demands of smaller zones - you need to blow too much CP/Energy on utility attacks if you're doing your job.
Not worth going 46/8/7 to get Imp SnD as well? I haven't quite hit 70 yet, and haven't done that many instance runs while I leveled up, so I can't really say how useful Imp SnD would be at 70. I was under the impression it would still be worthwhile, though perhaps I need to reconsider.
I went with what I would have thought to be a terrible spec. 30/0/31. I like it a lot. I have 1496 ap, unbuffed, 10% hit, 26% crit. I can sap, stun lock well, etc. So far Im liking it a lot. Quick recovery, cold blood, seal fate, prep, premed, +10% ap, hemo, serated blades, etc. Im amazed, but it is working out well.
Yeah, I'm at two days with 13/41/7, and while I can feel the extra dps, I'm short on CPs all the time and I'm already looking for some hemo variant. I'm not sure I have the crit to pull off SF Hemo right now, though, but I'm considering 11/20/30, which would give me the points to spend on Camo which is one of my absolute favorite "quality of life" talents.
I was 31/0/30 Hemo swords with AQR/Iblis which was insane CP generation, but I wish I had gone 30/0/31 but was too cheap to pay for the respec cost when I knew I was going to try daggers soon.
I'm now 43/3/15 Mutilate build to try it out for a while. As with all respecs I'd probably make some changes, such as going more like 41/5/15, but when I was respeccing I had difficulty finding some template builds, so this will do for a while.
Pewsey has heard about tact and discretion, but tends to regard them much as children view vegetables.
There are only two kinds of MMOs: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody plays. (inspired by Bjarne Stroustrup)
I really think blizzard should make it possible to swap when mobs are in combat (in pve only, since it would be too imba in PvP), but then again it might be abused by some chinese way of sologrinding.
Make in-combat sap possible as long as you are not currently being targeted by a mob or player, and it isn't abusable in PvP either.
In-combat 15 second mez without even a heartbeat resist chance or a polymorph-style drawback? I realise it would still only be usable from stealth, but still. PvP balancing won't get any easier by allowing rogues to vanish, mes someone, bandage, get back into stealth, and ambush the poor bastard all over again (and that's only one-on-one; the group potential for sapping in-combat people is scary).
Blizzard's problem with balancing rogues for pvp is that if they're going to win more than 50% of the time coming out of stealth (which is presumably the point of stealth openers at all), they can't also win more than 50% of the time when not in stealth. Which means limiting their un-stealthed damage or survivability or both. Each of which has consequences for rogues in PvE.
Blizzard's solution has mostly been to keep the damage at a cost to survivability. Level 70 stamina has blunted the power of stealth openers a little, so Blizzard felt free to up rogue survability out of stealth a bit in exchange.
If you want to move rogues back into the niche of stealth gankers and give them in-combat sap, they'll have to sacrifice their non-stealthed power again, which equates to their PvE power.
If you want to move rogues back into the niche of stealth gankers and give them in-combat sap, they'll have to sacrifice their non-stealthed power again, which equates to their PvE power.
Flagging it PVE only like the curse of doom would be a possibility to mitigate these concerns.
On topic: while I was taking a shower this morning (usually the place where the best ideas come from :D) I considered dropping lethality in favor of impr Sap for my sword combat spec. I cannot go daggers atm since I seriously lack any good daggers (BGs are not really active and instance groups in my guild are not yet running full power since 50 % of our level 70s are rogues. Therefore I must stay combat, my only alternative would be hemo (though I really, really like combat potency and want to continue that kind of playstyle).
Anyways, improved sap is something that should just be given to rogues for free as a trainable skill. It's completely unneccessary and only hurts the class. Of course, then there's PvP balance...
I am not a rogue, so forgive my ignorance.
But that sounds like "very useful to the point of being necessary, hence should be trainable".
I consider piercing howl and concussive blow to be same useful for every warrior tank in instance runs.
It does give you that precious time to establish aggro on mulitmob pulls, and are equisite abilities when things get tough.
But to make them trainable would somehow make talent trees and choices (even the obvious and hard ones) obsolete. Dont you think?
I never advocated Tactical Mastery being trainable either.
This is a very conscious decision to make. And not to have it did not make me a worse tank than a rogue without improved sap (you had sap afterall).
This is not meant as a flame. Perhaps I am really misjudging the "must have status" of improved sap.
I think Imp Sap is such a plus for 5 man instances (and PvP) that it is nigh on impossible for me to give it up despite a profound desire to spec 41/20/0. I think I may well end up at 41/3/17 (excellent in 5 mans and very credible in PvP) or 41/13/7 (PvE focused).
The -- [Retainer's Blade] -- does NOT need to be an offhand weapon just because it isn't slow - it is median damage that counts as we all know and this dagger has a virtually identical damage range (and therefore median damage) to the speed 2.0 GM dagger (as well as much better white DPS, excellent stats and faster poison application). I'll be mainhanding this dagger for sure and offhanding a GM dagger until something better comes along. If a Warp Splinter (1.3 speed) drops to off-hand i'd seriously consider putting 41 points into Combat - but, until 5 mans are old news and raids are the done thing, I simply can't see myself dropping Imp Sap.
Calling a weapon an offhand just looking at the speed is dull. That dagger still has a good weapon base, and nice stats. 20 less damage from backstabs shouldnt be a great deal, for a warrior some less to ww isnt if it is comparable.
Also for a mutilate build, does the speed of mainhand compared to offhand matter at all? Don't you want both weapons to have as high base as possible?
Something I'd been looking at is a 5/25/30 hemo build, with one point for either blade flurry or premed. It parses out pretty well on the spreadsheet with claw spec even without lethality. A slight alteration I'd also considered is dropping out the weapon spec and spending the spare points on tier 6/7 subtlety talents. It gives me imp sap, a good AP boost, and the white damage I Got addicted to during my combat dagger days. I honestly don't feel the points in mod are wasted giving the problems I've heard of people experiencing closing to mobs TBC for sap.
Plea - speed of weapon doesn't matter for Mutilate since it will be normalized at 1.7. What matters is high median damage.............normally this means slower weapons are better but only because slow weapons normally have high median damage. Speed DOES matter for a hemo build because that wasn't normalised so slower weaps are better (though high median damage is again important).
01/29/07, 3:26 PM
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