PvP: The Necessity of Stamina - Page 2

Itto · 01/31/07, 7:34 PM

Yeah... there was a thread about resilience...
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=9919
It's on page 2.
In my view, resilience is far too expensive in the item budget as it stands.

Elendril · 01/31/07, 7:44 PM

News flash: Stamina is good in PVP, and lvl 70 gear is better than lvl 60 gear.

I am intruiged by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Honestly, I'm confused by what new ideas are being raised here - that more HP is good when people are trying to kill you? Cool.

Lamaros · 01/31/07, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

Originally Posted by Lamaros

Originally Posted by alienangel

By and large, I'm of the opinion that just inflating health pools isn't a very good way to try to make PvP require more skill. Reducing crit rates in PvP on the other hand would have been a better option, forcing people to deal with predictable damage instead of sudden death from full health.

Did you get the memo about this nifty new thing they added? It's on pretty much every piece of PvP gear if you want it or not; and aims to do exactly what you want it to.

Yes, but they increased stamina too :p. And last I saw on these forums, Resilience was an ineffective enough stat that people would rather not have it eating away at their item budget.

It could be a great stat. It just seems to be waaaaaaay over budgeted at the moment. I dont know - you're the one who seems to want it?

Realisitcally you'll probably take the resilience that comes on the PvP gear because you have to, and it will help a little, and then you'll stack with sockets as you need. I doubt anyone will choose to get more resilience though; more stamina acomplishes very near the same thing (ability to survive), is cheaper, and univerally useful (against classes that dont crit, for example).

But if they make resilience cheap enough then I can see some people getting it.

Personaly I think PvP will turn on spell resists. With some of the stuff avaliable in TBC I can see where a couple of pieces of appropriate resittance gear will be a must have in Arenas.

As a Warlock I'll stack like this:

Stam, +Dam, Resists and Armor (if at all possible). Resilience is pointless as far as I'm concerned; but I dont fear bursts with the kind of health I'm going to be running.

Elerion · 01/31/07, 8:21 PM

Regarding armor priests, it should be an even better strategy than it was at 60 (where it was by far the best strategy for pvp healing). Players have more hp relative to damage thanks to the new item budget, and the value of armor increases with an increased HP pool.

I have not done any number crunching on resilience yet, but it's value should depend highly on wether you are a disc based or holy based pvp healer. Discipline priests will get far larger returns, since holy priests already have crit protection in Blessed Resilience, and in some cases might even want to eat a medium sized crit to get Martyrdom up.

Eej · 01/31/07, 9:40 PM

Originally Posted by Elendril

News flash: Stamina is good in PVP, and lvl 70 gear is better than lvl 60 gear.

I am intruiged by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Honestly, I'm confused by what new ideas are being raised here - that more HP is good when people are trying to kill you? Cool.

Silly Elendril, Hunters don't need HP. Why bother assist-training someone down who has more HP than most classes who are stacking HP, can FD casts off and Deterrence through any melee-assist trains? :D

Really though, this doesn't apply to some classes at all.

marketa · 01/31/07, 11:10 PM

We have a hunter in our guild pvping with 16000 hp, pure stamina gear. He says its funny because he looks like a total noob but people run when their 3k ambush doesnt even visibily move his health bar.

Turpin · 02/01/07, 10:54 AM

I valued stamina alot in 1.0. As a warrior I had 6.2k health in pvp gear whereas many others had 5kish. So i went with 20% more health. Now when i look at the new Gladiator set i see it has around 1kish more health than my 1.0 FM set. I also know that partly why they buffed stamina on items is that they were buffing base health for all classes and so stamina had to keep pace as being a good upgrade %tagewise from base health. But an additional 1k going from 9k to 10k is about 11% increase. So first i need to see if i can actually get back to that 20% buff over "average" gear which would put me around 11k in pvp gear- anyone looked into this? Secondly, im wondering if the stamina and base health buffs have kept pace with the damage buffs. So if a mage is hitting me for 40% more than he was in 1.0 and my base health increase and average gear stamina increase account for 20% of that, then i need to look for gear that gives me that 20% extra to keep pace from a survivability perspective. I havent done any of these comparisons but i think the upshot is that if it becomes too cost prohibitive in other stats to get the stamina gear to close this gap then piling stamina wont become worth it because base health and average stamina already give you a nice pool to start with. It seems that bliz has added resiliance as a secondary stat to increase overall survivability so maybe some of this gap is made up by resiliance.

alienangel · 02/01/07, 10:57 AM

Well the other reason hunters don't need HP is that in battlegrounds at least, it was often more efficient to just time your health and mana to run out simultaneously than to live for 10 minute stretches at low mana (yes, I was too cheap to have water unless a generous mage was around). This doesn't carry over to arenas though :(

flyinfungi · 02/01/07, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by marketa

We have a hunter in our guild pvping with 16000 hp, pure stamina gear. He says its funny because he looks like a total noob but people run when their 3k ambush doesnt even visibily move his health bar.

How did he get that much HP? Did he have all out consumables?

Elendril · 02/01/07, 3:30 PM

No, he wears all greens "of Stamina".

Northerner · 02/01/07, 4:20 PM

While my Hunter isn't 70 yet, the very thing has occurred to me. Stacking the max Stamina items per slot and respeccing for both HP increasing talents would simply be too amusing and I'm not sure you couldn't push it right up to 20k buffed. Hell, throw in every defensive talent and run around vipering, wingclipping and trapping people. While perhaps not terribly effective, this would make for a quite irritating opponent and that generally is my goal for my hunter. Now the next project of course would be to see how chubby of a bear sponge we can make before the nerfhammer falls on druids. The lack of big talent stamina multipliers take some of the fun out of it but I'm sure the final number will be amusing.

MatsT · 02/01/07, 9:33 PM

I will be putting stamina gems in all my gear until something amazing turns up. +12 on every spot for tanking and +12 on every spot for pvp. Stamina was the best stat even before, and now we get 50% more stam than the other stats.

Z-Factor · 02/01/07, 11:13 PM

Aye Matt I agree, although when it comes to meta gems i'm not so sure. I'm thinking mainly Powerful Earthstorm Diamond vs Tenacious Earthstorm Diamond, however i agree that solid stars of elune are the way to go for blue sockets. But then we know next to nothing about the trash/boss encounters in TBC so far. How big a part fear plays is doubtful, although stuns from bosses particularly could prove decisive in wipes. But then knowing 10% or more of all you attacks heal you on top of your main healing, could make the difference sometimes. That strikes me as trial and error through new encounters to find the optimum.

• frmorrison · 02/01/07, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by MatsT

I will be putting stamina gems in all my gear until something amazing turns up. +12 on every spot for tanking and +12 on every spot for pvp. Stamina was the best stat even before, and now we get 50% more stam than the other stats.

That is my plan as well, however metas are quite powerful, and I feel are worth losing 12 stamina for the one that helps your class.

Even the Terrokor Forest one (12 damage or 20 attack power and run speed is great), you could get 12 stamina on your boots instead.

Kink · 02/02/07, 4:52 AM

Originally Posted by alienangel

I'm more interested in how the changes affect classes that previously replied on a a few short cooldowns to hold an opponent at a short disadvantage, and try to kill him with applied burst before being neutralized by positioning. By and large, from 60-70 the cooldowns or their efficacy hasn't changed, so the duration of keeping your opponent where you want him hasn't changed. The burst has gone down (lower crit rates across the board, but harder more predictable hits).

The class I'm thinking of most of course is the hunter. A 70 hunter has the same tools to keep an opponent at bay as a 60, the same attacks, more health, more AP, and less crit. So when facing an opponent who is aware of the hunter, the hunter unloads. The opponent tries to close towards the hunter, and the hunter responds with cooldowns to keep his distance (Concussive shot, Scatter Shot or Intimidation). The hunter runs out to get some range again, and unloads again. The opponent closes again, the hunter uses a trap to slow him and get some more distance, and unloads again. The difference between 60 and 70 is that at 60, the opponent may die here. At 70, the opponent should only be at 30-50% health. At this point, the hunter's tricks for keeping range are all on cooldown, and he's likely snared from the previous times the opponent closed in, and also at less than full health if his opponent isn't a melee class. This 3rd time the opponent closes in, the hunter is stuck in melee range, doing trivial sustained DPS while his opponent can do full DPS. If the hunter is lucky, has a lot of health, or his opponent can't DPS hard enough, one of the hunters tricks cooldown and he can try to get to range to try DPS again. More usually (based on the small sample of BGs i've done where people bothered to wear stamina gear) the hunter just dies in melee range without ever getting out again, since the opponent had the sense to keep him snared.

I'd imagine rogues and warriors may have similar issues against casters - if they can't kill them on the first close and the caster manages to get 15 yards away, they just get kited to death.

I'm not really all that upset, it's just a change in class matchups, and does make the fight as a hunter a bit more interesting than seeing a mage running at me and having him reliably explode before he reaches me, but I'm not really sure what skill I'm supposed to bring to bear to the problem when everything I have is either a cooldown I've already used, or an ability that isn't usable in melee range. All I really need to do is stack enough stamina to survive 20s of DPS.

By and large, I'm of the opinion that just inflating health pools isn't a very good way to try to make PvP require more skill. Reducing crit rates in PvP on the other hand would have been a better option, forcing people to deal with predictable damage instead of sudden death from full health.

Sadly this is what happens. Rogues are very very much screwed over by these changes. We get totally pummeled now.

Due to the leather armour, the scenario you described above is enough to kill a rogue, he won't be on 30-50%.. he will be dead =/.

I try to beat a warrior, my stun lock that used to take them to 20% health, now leaves them at 50% health. I cannot survive long enough in melee range before I die to get rid of that last 50% health, and kiting is so difficult at the moment with the lag I invariably make a mistake and get intercepted > exploded.

The classes I am able to kill now are other rogues and casters. The ONLY reason I can do well against casters is cloak of shadows. I have yet to fight an 8k hp mage, but once they work out that to beat a rogue all you need to do is survive through those 5 seconds of cloak of shadows, ill be losing to them too.

That leaves rogues as my main prey. Ironic really =), or maybe thats moronic. Not sure. Either way I definately will be focussing on PvE in the future =)

Oh and also note that in EVERY duel I have to use cooldowns. Every fight. This is my biggest gripe about Rogues and PvP. We are SO incredibly cooldown dependant.

Need evasion to survive in melee with most classes. Warriors you can dodge the hamstring, execute, normal swings, hunters you dodge the wingclip, dodge bear druids 2k maul/mangle crits too =) etc.
Vanish for every time a mage frost novas you, imp hamstring procs, to remove a hamstring/poison that landed, to remove Curse of Exhastion (most idiotic spell in the game if yer a rogue, gg skilless ability that owns a class) etc.
Blind for when your vanish is down, need to bandage etc.
Sprint to catch up to that warlock who is kiting you with CoEx (he will fear you when you get close, but at least you might get a swing or two in =)

Sure I can beat people without my cooldowns, I played a rogue for 2 years now. I am a very good PvPer but i just hate the fact that we are so dependant on 3+minute abilities. Now with all the extra hp boosts you will REQUIRE these cooldowns. No more outplaying someone. You either use a cooldown, or get kited to death. It seems to me they are shifting PvP to casters, their main problem was survivability, now with 8k hp you dont NEED many escape tools beyond what a class gets naturally (i.e. blink) as you can take the hits much more comfortably.

*edit*
I will respec to a more PvP oriented mutilate build later as I am sure its far better than the hemo build I have now. Hemo is great for CP generation, but the damage is horrible. I would much rather have huge burst damage, such as backstab/mutilate because you will only get 2 or 3 hits on a person before they use an ability to get away, so make those few hits count.