PvP: The Necessity of Stamina - Page 3

Motw · 02/03/07, 2:51 PM

Even in old WoW I found a stamina heavy build most effective on my Mage and my Hunter, its all about playstyle I guess. Every time I gimped my stamina to buff my DPS I was disappointed with the results.

Chmee · 02/04/07, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by marketa

We have a hunter in our guild pvping with 16000 hp, pure stamina gear. He says its funny because he looks like a total noob but people run when their 3k ambush doesnt even visibily move his health bar.

I actually came across a hunter like that, perhaps it was the same. Pretty sure we are in the same battle group.

But to the point, while I still think stamina is of much greater importance now (as opposed to pre-expansion), you will still want some stats to up your damage.

Chmee · 02/04/07, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Kink

Need evasion to survive in melee with most classes. Warriors you can dodge the hamstring, execute, normal swings, hunters you dodge the wingclip, dodge bear druids 2k maul/mangle crits too =) etc.
Vanish for every time a mage frost novas you, imp hamstring procs, to remove a hamstring/poison that landed, to remove Curse of Exhastion (most idiotic spell in the game if yer a rogue, gg skilless ability that owns a class) etc.
Blind for when your vanish is down, need to bandage etc.
Sprint to catch up to that warlock who is kiting you with CoEx (he will fear you when you get close, but at least you might get a swing or two in =)

Sure I can beat people without my cooldowns, I played a rogue for 2 years now. I am a very good PvPer but i just hate the fact that we are so dependant on 3+minute abilities. Now with all the extra hp boosts you will REQUIRE these cooldowns. No more outplaying someone. You either use a cooldown, or get kited to death. It seems to me they are shifting PvP to casters, their main problem was survivability, now with 8k hp you dont NEED many escape tools beyond what a class gets naturally (i.e. blink) as you can take the hits much more comfortably.

I'm sorry, but isn't this same ol' thing that has been argued for ages by rogues and others? What can you expect from a class whose vast majority of abilities have cooldowns.

I'm definitely not one of those that believes rogues are a class requiring the least skill to play, but the certainly the most judgement as to what skills to use in which fights. If you wanted to use ALL your cooldowns it is entirely possible to take out every class out there. Counter this with the difficulty in taking out ANY other player WITHOUT cooldowns is what makes the rogue hit or miss deal.

Originally Posted by Kink

*edit*
I will respec to a more PvP oriented mutilate build later as I am sure its far better than the hemo build I have now. Hemo is great for CP generation, but the damage is horrible. I would much rather have huge burst damage, such as backstab/mutilate because you will only get 2 or 3 hits on a person before they use an ability to get away, so make those few hits count.

I'm sure you will have much more fun after gearing up a little, getting new weapons, and respeccing. I've noticed rogues being much more dangerous/useful in PvP than before.

Of course, I am a warlock and Cloak of Shadows is extremely difficult to work around. Killing a rogue is nearly impossible in world PvP if they don't want to die, at least for a caster.

Bloodterror · 02/04/07, 4:18 PM

I'm not noticing this new burst dps potential for all classes that you speak about. Seems like just mages. Rogues/warlocks/hunters/whatever don't do that much damage, and, for warriors at least, you can push your stam pretty high without making too many gear sacrifices, which is good since if I wore green gear of stamina my weapon would break before I killed someone. I will agree that stam>resil, but don't sacrifice too much in the way of damage stats for it.

Chmee · 02/04/07, 7:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bloodterror

I'm not noticing this new burst dps potential for all classes that you speak about. Seems like just mages. Rogues/warlocks/hunters/whatever don't do that much damage, and, for warriors at least, you can push your stam pretty high without making too many gear sacrifices, which is good since if I wore green gear of stamina my weapon would break before I killed someone. I will agree that stam>resil, but don't sacrifice too much in the way of damage stats for it.

Maybe the new levels of health versus DPS exaggerate the differences between plate and cloth. I certainly feel paper thin now with 8500 health. Perhaps I will think different when I get up to 10,000.

alienangel · 02/05/07, 2:34 AM

Originally Posted by Bloodterror

I'm not noticing this new burst dps potential for all classes that you speak about. Seems like just mages. Rogues/warlocks/hunters/whatever don't do that much damage, and, for warriors at least, you can push your stam pretty high without making too many gear sacrifices, which is good since if I wore green gear of stamina my weapon would break before I killed someone. I will agree that stam>resil, but don't sacrifice too much in the way of damage stats for it.

Strictly speaking, I do think burst potential has gone up. Rogues and hunters are hitting a fair bit harder at 70 than they used to at 60. But for hunters at least, that burst spends more time being mere potential instead of reality, since crit rates are down till we get kitted out in raid epics again (and from the looks of itemization, DPS crit mail isn't going to have much in the way of stamina int AP and MP5 like the old stuff did). And the relevance of the burst even when it happens is much less when the opponent has the ability to wear enough stamina gear to survive it and get a root off.

marketa · 02/05/07, 7:50 AM

keep in mind its almost impossible to get the armor mitigation you got at 60 as a cloth wearer

Kink · 02/05/07, 7:53 AM

@Chmee

My gear is currently quite pitiful for a lvl 70. I have run a fair few instances but, just as it was at 60, I am having the most horrible luck getting upgrades from my level 60 stuff. I know the gear is out there, I just can't get it to drop.

I do however have a friend, also a rogue, who now has 1700 unbuffed AP, 20% crit and is in full blues. I think the rogue problem is 90% gear related now. Once we have our epics we will be back on par. It seems that people saying that mages etc scale with gear just as bad as rogues dont realise one important fact. Its very EASY to gear a mage well, currently (at least for me) it sure as heck is harder thanhell to gear my rogue out of blues.

All I have seen is caster gear. Caster greens, caster drops (Sword dropped last night with +121 spell damage!). I assume its bad luck on my part, I look forward to raiding and getting tokens =).

Dendory · 02/05/07, 8:06 AM

I can't comment on how hard or easy it is to gear a rogue, but for a mage it really depends what you're after and what you do to get it. I didn't have much trouble to gear up and so far I'm at +820 frost dmg with 6200 hp. I top the DPS meter in PvE, but right now in PvP it's pretty damn rough. I have no chance at all against rogues and hunters, I find most other classes hard to beat but I manage. There are no more 'easy kills' for mages now that rogues have cloak of shadow and warriors have 3x the amount of hp, yet many classes can eat mages easily. Right now I'm trying to up my hp without reducing my dps too much, I should be able to get to 7k hp soon. Until then, I hide behind the crowd and throw 3k crit nukes.

Mem · 02/05/07, 8:37 AM

I did some EotS during the last days. Having 7k HP was definitely not enough to survive the burst from certain classes or their retaliation after the stunlock. Good ferals kill me pretty easily if they have the first strike (which most have). Warriors are pretty tough since my stunlock fills their ragebar and yet does not drop them below 30 %. So, yes, stack your HP and resilience as much as possible. OTOH most casters are still very suceptible to my burst damage out of stealth (most of them probably have about 6k hp and almost no armor). I guess in half a year nobody seriously interested in PVP will wear their PVE gear in the arena or the bg unless they don't have a PVP item on that slot (or the item is really vastly superior). If you want to gear up for PVP you must do PVP, which is a good thing imho.

TheCrunkOne · 02/05/07, 10:32 AM

You will be able to tell these days if someone is still holding on to their old Azerothian epics as opposed to someone wearing BC-quality blues. The difference between a clothie in BC gear and a clothie in old epics is extremely noticeable, as the former dies in about 3 good crits while the latter will certainly live much, much longer.

And as a warrior, I've made it to about 9600 HP and 90 resilience in my pvp gear, and it is amazing how well having all that HP works out for me. The easiest kill in WoW for me now? Hemo Rogues, however, Combat, Mutilate, and Shadowstep rogues can still hold their own from what I have seen (assuming they've upgraded to 70 dps weapons anyway.)

alcaras · 02/16/07, 10:46 AM

For 5v5 Arenas, how much health is "enough" for DPS classes that aren't likely to be focused? (e.g. Warrior)

As I see it, there's a threshold after which it's better to invest in increasing DPS... my question is what is that threshold? 10k? 11k? 12k?

Furthermore, what theorycraft methodology could use to arrive at the threshold? How can one 'model' PvP encounters to figure out how much health is enough?

XI- · 02/16/07, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by alcaras

For 5v5 Arenas, how much health is "enough" for DPS classes that aren't likely to be focused? (e.g. Warrior)

As I see it, there's a threshold after which it's better to invest in increasing DPS... my question is what is that threshold? 10k? 11k? 12k?

Furthermore, what theorycraft methodology could use to arrive at the threshold? How can one 'model' PvP encounters to figure out how much health is enough?

I'm running 9k right now, but TBH with the current state of the game I don't think there is enough. I find it highly likely that at least early in the season we'll see the same style teams we saw in the pick up arenas at 60 that were dominant, eg, ranged heavy mass dps groups, who with a certain level of gear could just come out blasting and kill people. I'm still seeing mages capable of destroying 70%+ of my unbuffed hp in under 1 second.

Elendril · 02/16/07, 12:57 PM

I'm at about 9100 unbuffed in my PVP gear right now. Balancing survival vs damage stats is interesting as a DPS class. Right now I have every piece of purchasable epic PVP gear, and I'm wearing the belt/bracers/boots/neck, but using Blood Knight's War Cloak over the Sergeant's Heavy Cape for an extra 30 or so AP over a few stam and resiliance. I think the importance of stam for a given class changes based on arena setting and group makeup - i'm certainly not the target most likely to take initial focus fire on my 5v5 team (warrior, priest, paladin, mage, and me), but in my 3v3 team (paladin/frost mage), I'm a much more attractive target. I may put on extra survival gear when I'm playing in that bracket, but on 5's I'm more inclined to load up on my damage.