this isn't a encounter is a stress test for all (horde) warriors
I dunno about other people, but I personally get pretty angry when I read these sort of things now. I haven't had a dwarf priest with consistancy enough to raid since Onyxia, and obviously don't have a draenei one. Pulling the "no paladin" card is also a cop out, so while some groups on alliance side have it easy (yes, fearward does indeed trivialize the fear), it's not something everyone has the luxury of. We've been raiding with a shaman for the last 3 weeks of Karazhan, I'd have to think by now you could find a paladin. Tremor totem is very useful for Nightbane, however, we used it on our caster group. At first the fear was an issue for our tank to dance (Nakilos, posted in this thread), but by the time we got our kill he missed a single fear in hours (and it was sub 25% when we were doing anything to survive and push out the kill). It's 100% dance-able, but it takes some practice for sure.
Originally Posted by Cannings
Originally Posted by Veniche
Originally Posted by Nakilos
I think on our last night of attempts we learned a lot about controlling phase 2 which "trivializes" it.
I think this trivializing factor is what istist's group is missing. My question is, is there any indication as to whether this is the intended approach? I suppose since 2.07 introduced some Karazhan changes we will find out in the coming days. It simply seems too good to be intended that one tiny thing can turn phase 2 from near impossible, into such a cakewalk (relatively speaking; the aggro mechanics are still an exciting although frustrating challenge).
I think we have all discovered the same "technique" and are all wondering if it intended or not, my personal philosophy is use it till it don't work no more, and we will but if it ends up turning out that its not meant to be I guess our group is going to turn into a very frost mage heavy group
Impervious has a video that shows fully killing every skeleton add, obviously not everyone has to use this.
Obviously with fear ward this is a lot easier so my current solutions are : find a priest with fear ward (which we have 0 70 dwarf or draenai priests), make sure everyone takes fear which is riskier if he crushing blows me during the fear (which is likely because it seems like almost every hit which is not blocked is a crushing blow), tremor totem is not reliable at all, or the aforementioned "don't do anything which is on the global cooldown" which, obviously, if its a long time between fears then more time passes where someone can reach my threat level. Or maybe its really a non issue and I'm just terrible, I just figured I'd ask if any other warriors have difficulty dancing this fear.
Make sure your shamans know that Tremor pulses immediately when you drop it, so they can usually break fears nearly instantly by redropping the totem. It obviously doesn't work on Onyxia or Magmadar type encounters where fear range is 40+ yards, but it sounds like it could work here. The boss *will* turn for a split second while you're feared though.
Does this still work? I was under the impression it was changed many patches ago, so that the initial pulse of Tremor was random to prevent it from being dropped directly before a fear?
DOT and rot.
Travian: Phased Weasel, -144 | 61, Damascus.
Obviously with fear ward this is a lot easier so my current solutions are : find a priest with fear ward (which we have 0 70 dwarf or draenai priests), make sure everyone takes fear which is riskier if he crushing blows me during the fear (which is likely because it seems like almost every hit which is not blocked is a crushing blow), tremor totem is not reliable at all, or the aforementioned "don't do anything which is on the global cooldown" which, obviously, if its a long time between fears then more time passes where someone can reach my threat level. Or maybe its really a non issue and I'm just terrible, I just figured I'd ask if any other warriors have difficulty dancing this fear.
Make sure your shamans know that Tremor pulses immediately when you drop it, so they can usually break fears nearly instantly by redropping the totem. It obviously doesn't work on Onyxia or Magmadar type encounters where fear range is 40+ yards, but it sounds like it could work here. The boss *will* turn for a split second while you're feared though.
Does this still work? I was under the impression it was changed many patches ago, so that the initial pulse of Tremor was random to prevent it from being dropped directly before a fear?
You don't drop it directly before the fear or it will pulse 5 seconds into the fear because it pulses immediately when it's dropped, and then every 5 seconds. You drop it directly after the fear, and I've used it in the past week...
It was changed awhile ago Necro. I haven't been able to instantly break fear with tremor totem for quite some time.
This is absolutely wrong, and it doesn't seem that people understand this.
I'll fraps an attempt if I have to just to show it pulses as soon as it's put down every time. We have a druid tanking him, and it wouldn't be possible otherwise.
All totems pulse the instant that they are dropped, and then periodically thereafter. I can drop poison cleansing to instantly cleanse my whole group after a poison volley. And yes, I can drop tremor to break fear instantly. Obviously that does you no good if you are yourself feared -- in that case you are the mercy of the pulses (5sec apart) and at what point between pulses the fear happened to hit.
Since I'm a relative novice on the functioning of totems - can you cast a new tremor totem with a tremor totem already down and have it pulse right away? Also, I assume there are timers available to show when your totems will pulse, correct?
Trying to figure out how to best use our newfound shaman :)
Since I'm a relative novice on the functioning of totems - can you cast a new tremor totem with a tremor totem already down and have it pulse right away? Also, I assume there are timers available to show when your totems will pulse, correct?
Trying to figure out how to best use our newfound shaman :)
Okay, so it does pulse instantly upon drop, like the infamous Poison Cleansing (and disease cleansing). However - how can you recommend using that for AOE fears, when the range on the totem is so short the shaman himself must be standing in fear range?
EDIT: I may be making a wrong assumption. Tremor is 30 yds, so with excellent timing you may be able to actually clip the tank and not get feared yourself. Is this your experience?
DOT and rot.
Travian: Phased Weasel, -144 | 61, Damascus.
Since I'm a relative novice on the functioning of totems - can you cast a new tremor totem with a tremor totem already down and have it pulse right away? Also, I assume there are timers available to show when your totems will pulse, correct?
Trying to figure out how to best use our newfound shaman :)
I believe this is what our shaman are using currently.
Unless I'm missing a major new feature, this doesn't track the pulse cycles -- that seems like it'd be a bit too much to micromanage on the fly. It's just a set of bars/icons showing which totems are down and when they will expire. GotWood is an Ace'd equivalent that is also very popular.
And Elendril, yes, you can re-drop an existing totem and have it immediately pulse (totems with cooldowns, like grounding or earthbind, as exceptions, at least until their cooldowns are up). Other pulsing totems work the same way. On Viscidus, for example, I would re-drop a new Poison Cleansing every single time my group got hit with a volley, to ensure that it never ticked on anyone. Totems like cleansing and tremor are cheap, and can/should be re-dropped with reckless abandon when appropriate.
Okay, so it does pulse instantly upon drop, like the infamous Poison Cleansing (and disease cleansing). However - how can you recommend using that for AOE fears, when the range on the totem is so short the shaman himself must be standing in fear range?
EDIT: I may be making a wrong assumption. Tremor is 30 yds, so with excellent timing you may be able to actually clip the tank and not get feared yourself. Is this your experience?
While it may not be as useful on the tank, say for example you are grouped with a paladin. With talents, paladin auras are 40 yards but it is still not enough to provide devotion on the tank without having to back out for fears (and allow the aura to fall off). Heal range is 40 yd on the tooltip but heal range is still 5-8 yards longer than the talented aura's range, pretty annoying honestly. So if another healer had to take a step forward to heal a melee on the opposite side of the mob or a paladin was staying in to provide an aura for example, you could drop a tremor for a pulse to unfear your other healers.
I think on our last night of attempts we learned a lot about controlling phase 2 which "trivializes" it.
I think this trivializing factor is what istist's group is missing. My question is, is there any indication as to whether this is the intended approach? I suppose since 2.07 introduced some Karazhan changes we will find out in the coming days. It simply seems too good to be intended that one tiny thing can turn phase 2 from near impossible, into such a cakewalk (relatively speaking; the aggro mechanics are still an exciting although frustrating challenge).
I think we have all discovered the same "technique" and are all wondering if it intended or not, my personal philosophy is use it till it don't work no more, and we will but if it ends up turning out that its not meant to be I guess our group is going to turn into a very frost mage heavy group
Honestly considering the wide variety of abilities which do work to make phase 2 easier, I think its intended. There is a huge difference between 1-3 800 a second immolation auras and 5-6. With the former its a lot more functional for melee to actually contribute to phase 2, the latter they are a waste of a raid slot, and the healing need is obviously a lot more manageable with 1-3 versus 5-6. It isn't a short fight either so I don't know, to me it is a mechanic which is about good timing to not screw yourself over since you need healers to be able to sustain themselves through the entirety of the fight.
I think this trivializing factor is what istist's group is missing. My question is, is there any indication as to whether this is the intended approach? I suppose since 2.07 introduced some Karazhan changes we will find out in the coming days. It simply seems too good to be intended that one tiny thing can turn phase 2 from near impossible, into such a cakewalk (relatively speaking; the aggro mechanics are still an exciting although frustrating challenge).
I think we have all discovered the same "technique" and are all wondering if it intended or not, my personal philosophy is use it till it don't work no more, and we will but if it ends up turning out that its not meant to be I guess our group is going to turn into a very frost mage heavy group
Honestly considering the wide variety of abilities which do work to make phase 2 easier, I think its intended. There is a huge difference between 1-3 800 a second immolation auras and 5-6. With the former its a lot more functional for melee to actually contribute to phase 2, the latter they are a waste of a raid slot, and the healing need is obviously a lot more manageable with 1-3 versus 5-6. It isn't a short fight either so I don't know, to me it is a mechanic which is about good timing to not screw yourself over since you need healers to be able to sustain themselves through the entirety of the fight.
Why are you avoiding saying it? Blessing of protection removes the rain of bones debuff and prevents skeletons from spawning. Limited invuln pots probably do too, although I haven't tried it. According to the spell data, it looks like 1 skeleton spawns every 0.4 seconds, so if you're fast enough you can get only 1 skeleton. Definitely questionable whether it is intended and falls under the same category as LOSing/running out from netherspite. Regardless, the skeletons only have 13.5k hp, your rogues and warriors can get strath holy water, cloak of shadows has a 1 min cooldown, and fire ward + frost nova, water elemental nova, or even shadowfury are very effective in controlling the skeletons before you can deal the measly 13.5k AE damage needed to kill them. It's probably worth it to just put in the time and learn it 'the real way' at some point if using this method because all it takes is a little practice and the corpse run is really short.
Okay, so it does pulse instantly upon drop, like the infamous Poison Cleansing (and disease cleansing). However - how can you recommend using that for AOE fears, when the range on the totem is so short the shaman himself must be standing in fear range?
EDIT: I may be making a wrong assumption. Tremor is 30 yds, so with excellent timing you may be able to actually clip the tank and not get feared yourself. Is this your experience?
Tremor is 40 yards if you have the range extending talent, so you can outrange 35 yard fears such as Nefarian's.
Impervious has a video that shows fully killing every skeleton add, obviously not everyone has to use this.
Heh curious how is Kalend's video at showing that haven't watched it yet. I went over my own kill video and think I saw like 2 skeletons total since I was the guy healing the paladin during that time.
But yeah I balk at that people have to resort to completely removing the skeletons from the fight in a lot of instances (the number 2 guild on our server has gotten nightbane to 26% using that method).
Also, our mages our Fire not Frost so while Frost in theory could help more but proper tanking of the skeletons with a mixture of good frost nova usage works very well.
Originally Posted by Veniche
Originally Posted by Nakilos
I think on our last night of attempts we learned a lot about controlling phase 2 which "trivializes" it.
I think this trivializing factor is what istist's group is missing. My question is, is there any indication as to whether this is the intended approach? I suppose since 2.07 introduced some Karazhan changes we will find out in the coming days. It simply seems too good to be intended that one tiny thing can turn phase 2 from near impossible, into such a cakewalk (relatively speaking; the aggro mechanics are still an exciting although frustrating challenge).
By near impossible I assume you mean easily repeatable? Heh, the landing of Nightbane gives us more issues often than the Phase 2 part.
I think we have all discovered the same "technique" and are all wondering if it intended or not, my personal philosophy is use it till it don't work no more, and we will but if it ends up turning out that its not meant to be I guess our group is going to turn into a very frost mage heavy group
Honestly considering the wide variety of abilities which do work to make phase 2 easier, I think its intended. There is a huge difference between 1-3 800 a second immolation auras and 5-6. With the former its a lot more functional for melee to actually contribute to phase 2, the latter they are a waste of a raid slot, and the healing need is obviously a lot more manageable with 1-3 versus 5-6. It isn't a short fight either so I don't know, to me it is a mechanic which is about good timing to not screw yourself over since you need healers to be able to sustain themselves through the entirety of the fight.
Why are you avoiding saying it? Blessing of protection removes the rain of bones debuff and prevents skeletons from spawning. Limited invuln pots probably do too, although I haven't tried it. According to the spell data, it looks like 1 skeleton spawns every 0.4 seconds, so if you're fast enough you can get only 1 skeleton. Definitely questionable whether it is intended and falls under the same category as LOSing/running out from netherspite. Regardless, the skeletons only have 13.5k hp, your rogues and warriors can get strath holy water, cloak of shadows has a 1 min cooldown, and fire ward + frost nova, water elemental nova, or even shadowfury are very effective in controlling the skeletons before you can deal the measly 13.5k AE damage needed to kill them. It's probably worth it to just put in the time and learn it 'the real way' at some point if using this method because all it takes is a little practice and the corpse run is really short.
I was avoiding saying it just because the thread seemed to be spoiler free at least in terms of specifics related to this encounter (where fears and crushing blows aren't really new and unique mechanics). Limited Invulnerability Potions don't remove Rain of Bones if I recall, they just prevent the damage, but I think a flask of petrification will remove it entirely, and what makes the fight easier is how soon the debuff is removed.
So I'll continue to save spoilers, because there are a lot more classes/talent builds which are beneficial in that fight in order to get rid of the rain of bones debuff.
One of our rogues has also reported immune vanishing the rain of bones debuff on himself intentionally (you can see the cast bar if you target nightbane) similar to vanish immuning a fear on nefarian etc.
One of our rogues has also reported immune vanishing the rain of bones debuff on himself intentionally (you can see the cast bar if you target nightbane) similar to vanish immuning a fear on nefarian etc.
You can vanish out just about anything if you time it properly. Two of the better things I've been able to get out of are Sapph's frost bomb Maexxna's poison spray (gogo damage charts :P).
The spoiler thing was unnecessary. I wouldn't consider it in the slightest an exploit... If the devs don't believe its working as intended I'm sure they'll change it.
As to the person saying they're upset because Horde warriors have it harder, and that you take offense cause you've never had a dwarf priest - the point is that fear ward does indeed make many encounters easier - this one in particular, with respect to the no-warning early fear (bug). You have tremor now with fear ward, with berserker stance. Essentially you at worst have the option of finding a dwarf priest, but obviously the original comment by the poster you replied to was in regards to those who have that option. It is basically a fact that having fear ward is better than not having it.
Its like some of the comments in the melee suck thread... but, but, but, we did it with melee! That doesn't mean its better with melee, doesn't mean its better without fear ward... just because something is possible doesn't mean its not ill-conceived, ill-tuned, or basically broken/stupid (see: gruul).
But I must agree, it feels like the fear is comming 0,5 sec faster than other bellowing roar warning.
Super.
So glad having a 5-800ms ping is not going to be a factor in this game...
Is this confirmed though? I could dance Nef/Ony fears ok with my latency but with very little room for error. If this fear has a faster cast it might just be all but impossible to dance for me.
Why are you avoiding saying it? Blessing of protection removes the rain of bones debuff and prevents skeletons from spawning.
Wow - that is a lot more dramatic than what I thought you guys were hinting at. Though, this confuses me even more about the Rain of Bones mechanic as from my experience it seems like the whole raid is affected by the Rain of Bones debuff, is this not true?
Yeah, Tremor Totem doesn't actually have a 'short' range. It has the longest range of any of our totems by 10 yards. With the Totemic Mastery talent it will increase the totems range from 30 to 40. Bellowing Roar only has a 35 yard range. Also, you can LoS every Bellowing Roar up to this point except for Onyxia's, so you don't necessarily even have to stand at max range.
We used reactive Tremor Totems for all of our Nefarian and Taerar kills. The totem should actually be used this way in pretty much every situation, including 5-mans and pvp, and I'm kinda surprised at how many people are not aware of how it actually works. Tremor Totem is a fairly amazing spell, and overall it is much, much more valuable than Fear Ward ever will be.
Why are you avoiding saying it? Blessing of protection removes the rain of bones debuff and prevents skeletons from spawning.
Wow - that is a lot more dramatic than what I thought you guys were hinting at. Though, this confuses me even more about the Rain of Bones mechanic as from my experience it seems like the whole raid is affected by the Rain of Bones debuff, is this not true?
Why are you avoiding saying it? Blessing of protection removes the rain of bones debuff and prevents skeletons from spawning.
Wow - that is a lot more dramatic than what I thought you guys were hinting at. Though, this confuses me even more about the Rain of Bones mechanic as from my experience it seems like the whole raid is affected by the Rain of Bones debuff, is this not true?
This is the reason none of us actually say the real tactic behind it, if you or your guild have not bothered to put in the effort into researching every debuff that occurs in the fight and then asking yourself the super important questions of how, who, when and most importantly WHY. Then taking those theories that you come up with and trying to get a reproducable result on each attempt. Then by a corralation of all these work throughs that you've organised you will get your kill.
Not by a guy on a forums sayings Debuff A does Effect A and hits Player B when he turns 3 times and hits escape 2.645 seconds into the 2nd phase
Why are you avoiding saying it? Blessing of protection removes the rain of bones debuff and prevents skeletons from spawning.
Wow - that is a lot more dramatic than what I thought you guys were hinting at. Though, this confuses me even more about the Rain of Bones mechanic as from my experience it seems like the whole raid is affected by the Rain of Bones debuff, is this not true?
This is the reason none of us actually say the real tactic behind it, if you or your guild have not bothered to put in the effort into researching every debuff that occurs in the fight and then asking yourself the super important questions of how, who, when and most importantly WHY. Then taking those theories that you come up with and trying to get a reproducable result on each attempt. Then by a corralation of all these work throughs that you've organised you will get your kill.
Not by a guy on a forums sayings Debuff A does Effect A and hits Player B when he turns 3 times and hits escape 2.645 seconds into the 2nd phase
Pretty sure we are past the point of killing Nightbane being a big deal. It took a whole 30 seconds to look up rain of bones on thottbot's spell database and see that it was physical and think "that'd be pretty hilarious if BOP removed that" on our first attempt. Besides, after telling some other people about that method, their paladin was incapable of reliably preventing the spawns and they still got 2-4 each time, so it's not like it trivializes the fight. You have to be very fast (0.4 second margin for error for each additional skeleton spawned based on the spell data). Dealing with the skeletons "the right way" isn't even that bad. Randomness during the landing phase and smoking blast are both much more difficult and the cat's out of the bag for smoking blast even on wowwiki (I updated the wowwiki entry to add skeleton health/attributes and correct some errors and someone else edited in a method for dealing with smoking blast).
On a side note, I am very amused by how much paladins bring to this fight. Times like this sure do make me wish I was back on my rogue.
02/14/07, 1:07 PM
