With the way guildox works currently this statement isn't necessarily true. Doing the bosses 1 time gets your member put on the list. Even if they got nothing from the boss they will still be on list and will be on the list forever. As I understand it, even if that person stops raiding, is an alt, or even leaves your guild I think they still stay on the list that will disqualify you.

Currently guildox doesn't make any distinction between those that run it every week and those that don't. At the moment you could technically have 7 people clearing all of ICC25 every week. Removing any limit on the first wing won't really change the gear advantage that people gaming the current system could already have.

The problem is guildox doesn't take into account how often people run it. And since it sounds like that isn't going to change, for recruitment purposes it would be nice to eliminate the first wing.

Is there any way of knowing roughly how many more guilds will fall back into 10 man strict if you remove the first wing of ICC 25. As I said in a previous post, there seems to only be about 200 strict 10 man guilds world wide. That just doesn't seem like a lot.

I think what he was getting at is a situation similar to ours: we're close to the exclusion mark, and one of the counts against us is the alt of a non-raider who did Marrowgar-25 once. He is unlikely to leave the guild, and will remain as counting against our progression raiding team for the concievable future.

I think the frequency of people doing the 25s is more important, if it can be measured. To use an extremem example, a guild clearing out only the Lower Spire, but doing it every week, will have more of an advantage than a 10-man strict recruiting a cumulative 8 people who've killed the Lich King once each.

A more realistic example is our own. As I said, we're close to exclusion. Two more people kill Marrowgar and we're off. However, only two of our number do 25s with any kind of regularity. The rest have gone maybe once or twice, hardly giving us much advantage. As a side issue, at least two of those number aren't even on the raid team, but I think you mentioned, Polar, that you intend to implement something that will allow that kind of distinction.

Allowing people to PuG parts of ICC25 and still stay on the list would also "force" all 10-man guilds who wanted to stay "competitive" to do the same. The entire point of the 10 strict ratings is to have a way for people to compete without bothering with 25-mans. Optimally you would just check the gear at the moment of the kill to make sure no 25-man items was used, but until Blizzard makes this possible I don't think there is much you can do.

This is very true.

Exactly, most of our current members are former 25man raiders and we chosed to be 10man strict not because we have to, but because we want to.

I think that's more of a quirk of the way the ICC achievement brackets have been set out than anything else.

We did Storming the Citadel ages ago, Festergut and Rotface have been in the bag for a while. We're comfortable on Valithria, and probably getting Blood Princes tonight. But until we move on to Sindragosa/Blood Queen/Putricide and get another wing down, we look no more progressed than guilds who are only just past Saurfang. If you looked at the ranking tables you'd think not much was going on, but it's just that Blizzard have set the achievement breaks at the end of each wing, and with 3 open wings it makes more sense to work on the other bosses first.

Based on our server and others I've looked at, there seem to be a lot of strict guilds who sail past Saurfang and are sitting somewhere between there and the Sindy/BQL/Putricide levels.

Lord Marrowgar - [Bulwark of Smouldering Steel]

Quite unfair to pug first boss in ICC25 and get better caster shield than 10man strict guild members can get from Sindragosa and only from her.

This is the system Polar came up with to somehow separate pure 10man guilds from others, it is not perfect system but since Blizzard is not doing anything about it, at least not in this expansion (fingers crossed for Cata) and non of us has some better solution to this problem we should just follow.

I'm personally of the opinion that "strict" should mean "strict". Not "I'm going to arbitrarily draw the line here". I think the guildox strict-10 ranking list would lose it's value if guilds with current-tier 25-man gear started showing up on it with the author's blessing.

Naw man Presence of mind had the first lich king kill on this server hands down. And i wasn't saying that we were bored, but that it could be used in other guilds that may be getting bored of icc. I guess I can understand where you're coming from that some people could see it not being fair if they make a new guild and just run icc, that they'd still be held behind other guilds that were around for togc. However I still disagree, and believe that new guilds should have to run the older dungeons in this expansion to be ranked above the older guilds that spent the time and worked on them when they were harder. A brand new raiding guild for instance, who's taking down up to even Festergut in icc 10, certainly should have no problem going into naxx or ulduar 1 time a week (like we did) to get that progression under their belts, and I still feel it should be mandatory if you are to be considered a top guild.

I'm sorry but I must disagree.

Althought we had found ourselves in exactly the same situation when our guild was #1 on server thanks to Ulduar hardmodes that no one else but us have done and we dropped to #3 when old content was removed, I still find it more fair and more current just to focus this rankings on the latest PvE content only.

Same as doing Ulduar hardmodes has no value anymore, ToGC is not being run for progress reasons anymore and running it just to get extra GuildOx progression points is exactly what Polar is trying to avoid, not to force guilds to run older content for the sake of improving their rankings. It sucks that you lost your points for ToGC but let's be fair to newly formed guilds who will skip ToGC as we have already discussed in this thread.

Do you honestly believe that spending evenings on Yogg+0 or Algalon or AnubHC should be considered as a progress when there is LK and ICC HC? Getting all old content progression points would cost you some first kills (within your ranking pool) in ICC which would at the end result in two guilds having exactly the same points but the newer guild would be behind because they were too late on ICC kills due to their farming of old content points. As I said, we lost our old points aswell and it wasn't nice but majority already convinced Polar to remove it.

EDIT: You can't really compare older guilds who have cleared Ulduar hardmodes when they were current and hard and newly formed guilds who would only fly throught there nowadays. So what is the point of forcing new guilds clearing all WotLK PvE content than?

My view would be that kills on older content would be managed better by the 10 man strict achievement listing, rather than the progression listing.
Strict progression listings are precisely that and focused on the current raid tier, while the strict achievement listings give a more rounded view of the guild and its capabilities.

In my honest opinion it does for several reasons.

1) I am not 100% convinced that 25m and 10m difficulty will be equal.
2) Current 25m guilds that can split into two 10m groups if needed will be gearing up faster than current 10m strict guilds that rely on one strong 10m group.
3) There will always be people who will never consider 10m raiding anything more than just a training ground for "real" 25m raids.

Indeed 10m strict will not be needed in Cata, but I'd suggest making 1 general ranking for all guilds on the server and than 2 separate rankings one for 10m and other one for 25m, so 10m guilds can still compete with 25m guilds but can still track their 10m ranking for the reasons mentioned above.