I did notice a couple of S10 rating players hanging around with a last log in of Dec 5. I believe Red is correct that the filter should be set at 3 am Dec 6 as the cut off.
How does it look now? If you see any more S10's then send me a link and the name of the toon.
Author of guild, toon and loot ranking site GuildOx.com
The S10 players should be gone now - I thought I had made the original change go live but it turns out it hadn't. All should be good now.
As for showing guild BGR ratings when there are only 2 L85 players in the guild - I have added a check to make sure there are at least 10 active level 85 players and, if there is not, the average bg score will be zero.
Author of guild, toon and loot ranking site GuildOx.com
I recently sent an email to Polar, and he asked me to post my suggestion here for additional feedback.
Hi polar,
I was wondering how "set in stone" you would consider the point values
for boss kills to be. I believe the current system favors quick kills
on the easier bosses too much (6/8H is worth 67% of the potential
point total). This is perhaps best exemplified by Heroic Morchok and
Heroic Spine of Deathwing being worth the same number of points.
The reason I bring this up is because the current overall ranking
list(s) seem(s) to be inconsistent with how most people would rank
guild progress over a tier. Recently, <Suit Up> of US-Frostmourne
leap-frogged over 13 guilds that killed Heroic Madness of Deathwing
before them (in one case by as much as a full week (감자캐러갔는데 등에 흙은 왜묻어
이사람아, of KR-Gul'dan), which is an eternity when it comes to talking
about progression ranks). I understand that performance on the early
bosses should count for something, but I think most would agree their
involvement should be limited to serving as more of a "tie breaker"
for guilds that finish the tier within roughly the same time span (+/-
a couple of days, perhaps), rather than being worth the bulk of the
points as it is now.
Instead of the current system with bosses being worth a potential
4000/4000/4000/4000/4000/4000/4000/8000 points (left to right:
Morchok, Yor'sahj, Zon'ozz, Hagara, Ultraxion, Blackhorn, Spine,
Madness), I would propose something more like
500/1500/1500/1500/1500/3500/10000/20000 (same order). That would make
the first 6/8 heroic bosses combined worth a potential 10,000 points,
spine of deathwing another 10,000, and madness of deathwing the final
20,000. At both the 7/8 and 8/8 heroic level, that devotes 50% of the
potential points to past progression and 50% to the most recent kill.
Although I mentioned <Suit Up> specifically in my email (sorry), they are far from the only example. Another example of a dramatic "inconsistency" in the current world rankings would be genuine of EU-Blackrock (rank 14 25m guild, killed heroic madness on January 8th, 2012) vs. Envy of EU-Auchindoun (rank 17 25m guild, killed heroic madness on December 30, 2011). In this case, Envy was nickel and dimed for missing out on the first week of the progression race (LFR ban) pretty severely, but they obviously recovered from that and landed a respectable kill date for heroic madness.
If I were to summarize your issue - you feel that guilds that got their first heroic kill of the Madness of Deathwing are not being rewarded sufficiently for that kill and that other guilds that took longer to get there are sometimes being ranked higher than they should be.
I am curious to hear what others think on this. It is fairly easy for me to change kill points weightings but I am a bit reluctant to do so unless everyone feels that a change needs to be made. I also need to be careful that we simply don't create a scheme that just reverts back to "you are ranked only based on your last kill" - GuildOx had that system for a long while but when I surveyed our user base people overwhelmingly voted for a points-based system that rewarded consistent performance over a tier rather than just ranking based on who killed the last boss the quickest.
Comments?
Last edited by Polar : 01/25/12 at 12:55 AM.
Author of guild, toon and loot ranking site GuildOx.com
That's a pretty good summary of what I was getting at. I agree that the last boss shouldn't be the only thing that matters - I just think the balance is off with the current system, and I also believe the more difficult bosses should be worth more points, in general. I think the points I suggested would be more fair with the 50/50 split between most recent kill and past progression for 7-8/8 heroic, and I also think those point values are a decent reflection of the difficulty of each boss (as a compromise between 10's and 25's).
I agree with Saanu, although I think the values should be carefully chosen.
For heroic content it might be straight forward to give spine and madness (resp. the last 1 or 2 encounters in any raidcontent) a higher rating - but for the rest the values should be good balanced.
In general I would appriciate and recommend to let the points per encounter slightly grow by its difficulty.
For example : our guild had a delay in the first DS encounters because at that time we missed some players and were only 7 guild members in raid, thus the kills werent counted in Guildox for us.
We therefore lost a week of progression and the points we had lost there are hard to makeup - or actually impossible as long as the other guilds around us in the ranking dont have a similar problem and would loose a week.
That means, even whe we killed DS spine and madness NH almost a full week earlier than our competitor, they can still be slightly higher ranked than we are, because the points deficit we made in the first encounters.
On the other hand, a good and fast progression in early encounters should still have a certain value.
If I were to propose a solution, it would be simply to increase the points for Heroic Spine and Heroic Madness. Let me have a play with some numbers.
As mentioned above, I want to keep true to the rewarding of consistent performance throughout heroics and not just rank guilds based on their final kill date of Heroic Madness. Leave it with me. Feel free to continue any discussions or objections.
Author of guild, toon and loot ranking site GuildOx.com
@Polar
I have another feature request:
In the 25+10-Progress you have that nice green up-arrows to highlight the latest changes in ranking. Would like that in 10-ranking too.
And a small but nasty thing: the new menu with the popup-sub-menues doesnt work properly in Internet Explorer. The 2nd level is shown but as soon as I want to click there the opened menu disappears (cause mouse leaves level 1 of submenu). Other browsers are working ;-)
Just another thing because its a current hot topic
The bug with the paladine seal has brought several guilds making progress they wouldnt be able to do.
Example: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
This invalidates hero kills being made, and therefore progress been reached.
Dunno how you can prevent that to affect the progress rankings?!
Maybe just dont accept kills from Feb 1st to 5th or so?
In the 25+10-Progress you have that nice green up-arrows to highlight the latest changes in ranking. Would like that in 10-ranking too.
And a small but nasty thing: the new menu with the popup-sub-menues doesnt work properly in Internet Explorer. The 2nd level is shown but as soon as I want to click there the opened menu disappears (cause mouse leaves level 1 of submenu). Other browsers are working ;-)
Both of these should now be implemented. Yell out if you see any issues. The 25m lists might show most guilds as "new" for the moment - this will settle down after 2 weeks.
Also, I have increased the points for Spine and Madness heroic. This should help address the issues raised above.
Last edited by Polar : 02/05/12 at 4:59 AM.
Author of guild, toon and loot ranking site GuildOx.com
How about denoting kills that happen post nerf? Maybe reduce the number of points that contribute to their ranking or something? Not sure how to address that really, but I think 8/8 pre nerf means more than 8/8 post nerf. With a weekly increasing nerf, the encounters get easier and easier.
Then again, people could turn off the nerf so how would you know...
Maybe reduce the number of points that contribute to their ranking or something? Not sure how to address that really, but I think 8/8 pre nerf means more than 8/8 post nerf. With a weekly increasing nerf, the encounters get easier and easier.
I am not sure this is really necessary. We have bonus points that already decay over time so anyone that kills a boss earlier will benefit by receiving more points. I don't see the need to add a second tier of decay or penalty.
Happy to hear any other opinions.
As for denoting a post-nerf kill - it would be easy to show simply by looking at the dates. Do people want it called out though? Is anyone actually turning the nerf/debuff off?
Author of guild, toon and loot ranking site GuildOx.com
I think the point decay system is about as good as it's going to get. It's possible to turn the raid-wide debuff off, so you can't really know if a guild is using it or not unless you cross-reference their kills against posted logs (and even those can technically be altered by someone who is dedicated enough). It might be worth it to make an exception for major, encounter-specific nerfs that can't be toggled on or off (like the 15% tendon HP nerf on heroic spine), but that's Polar's call.
On another subject, I think it'd be nice if you could see a guild's regional and world rankings on a per-encounter/achievement basis in their profile. Right now, the per-encounter/achievement table in each guild's profile only has a column for realm rank.
One thing I noticed earlier - and just noticed yet again - is that the ranking does not sum up NH + HC points.
Instead it just counts the HC points once NH is clear and first HC killed.
I would like (and suggest) that the ranking sums up NH as well as HC alltogether.
Its a bit "sad" to see that the achieved NH progress (speed) gets totally obsolete as soon as entering heroics.
Love your page, one thing that I would find interesting, which I could not find how to do on your page or anyone else's is how to sort by certain achievements. For example I was interested in finding out how many people on my server have killed Heroic Rag, or other achievements that have a low completion rate.
Love your page, one thing that I would find interesting, which I could not find how to do on your page or anyone else's is how to sort by certain achievements. For example I was interested in finding out how many people on my server have killed Heroic Rag, or other achievements that have a low completion rate.
If you go to any guild page (example) and click on the "achievements" tab, the list of achievements are shown in order of completion rate.
If you then click on any of these achievements, it will take you to the server ranking page for that achievement. Example This will show you the number of guilds on your server that have completed it. We don't have a "user" count for these guild achievements, but you could probably have a good guess based on the number of guilds.
Author of guild, toon and loot ranking site GuildOx.com
Is there any way to ignore 10man achievements and kills? We're a 25man raiding guild, but we do have some players that are not interested in 25man raiding and are independant from our main raid and decided to form a 10man raid group.
And due to a really crazy member situation during progress we had to skip some raid nights, which actually allowed the 10man group to kill Madness heroic before we did as a "real" with 25 people.
(Also, Madness 10man seems to be twice as "easy" as 25man, at least more than double the amount of guilds have him down on 10man according to WoWProgress (can't check on your page for the mentioned reasons)).
The problem is, now we show up as a 25+10man guild (which we really aren't), and in the server overview even only as "10man". And we don't show up in the 25man tier anymore at all (although all of our previous kills have been in 25man, and we have killed Madness in 25man now as well).
Is there any way to correct this? E.g. simply set the guild to "25man only", or even just remove the 10man achievement and have it replaced by the 25man version?
(Also, Madness 10man seems to be twice as "easy" as 25man, at least more than double the amount of guilds have him down on 10man according to WoWProgress (can't check on your page for the mentioned reasons)).
OT : It are that many more 10man kills because there are more 10man raids at all (compared to 25m).
If you look in WoL the success rate of 25m is higher (11%) than on 10m (3,8%), although the overall number of kills are higher for 10m.
Is there any way to ignore 10man achievements and kills? We're a 25man raiding guild, but we do have some players that are not interested in 25man raiding and are independant from our main raid and decided to form a 10man raid group.
The quick answer is unfortunately, no. Your first kill of heroic madness on 10m has categorized you as a 10m raiding group. I would like to say that just wait until your next boss kill and be sure to do it on 25m but you may have a bit of time to wait. You are going to have to stick with your 25+10 rankings until MoP.
However, I am working on something that might help for MoP - but let's see what the raid format for MoP is going to be - I still suspect Blizzard will announce something soon about raid sizes.
And as for Madness being twice as easy on 10m over 25m - I am not sure that I agree. Check out the average item levels for first kills and you will see that they are reasonably close:
01/06/12, 9:33 PM
