While I realize this isn't the point, are you sure this is true? Since you're probably not wearing STR gear anymore, your ranged AP and crit should be mostly the same as your melee crit (back when it was 2 rap/agi it could actually be higher couldn't it?), pre-battleshout. With an appropriate speed weapon of good DPS, I'd have thought your Throw/shoot bow dps would be a good bit above your unarmed autoattack. Keep in mind that with rogue levels of +hit you wouldn't miss any ranged attacks, and of course not glance, dodge or parry. With melee autoattacks you'd deal with all of those, and an off-hand penalty, and no damage from a weapon.
Ranged weapons for rogues/warriors comes in around 100 dps. There is a 1.5s cooldown on top of the attack speed of the ranged weapon.
I haven't read this thread besides the OP, and I'm sure that this has been said, but because rogues and DPS warriors are more gear dependant than any ranged DPS, over time they will regain their positions at the top of damage meters. For now, yeah it sucks to be us. In a year though, it'll be just like old times.
This isn't about damage meters or who should be king, leave that for another thread. This isn't about being gear dependent either. Go back and read my first post and the remainder of this thread.
Despite the frustration I had at the end of Naxx, I can honestly say that I now miss 40 man raids and the older pre-TBC content. Even thou MC was a bore, the encounters were better balanced for melee and ranged (even if the favor went to ranged still). I had high hopes for raiding after seeing just how well done Naxx was....most instanced group content currently feels like it was rushed out in a very unpolished state. The outdoor aspects of TBC are very well done and it feels that is where the majority of the polish went in.
I think a good idea would be to make the mobs melee AoEs do a maximum and a minimum amount of damage, but be spread amongst all those hit like meteor.
For instance 25-man raid:
General Cleavebutt is has a massive 24,000 point cleave which he uses every 10 seconds, starting 20 seconds into the fight. Blizzard has designed the encounter such that they expect 5 melee dps + 1 tank to be attacking general cleavebutt at all times.
Since 6 people in melee range is expected, the 24,000 point cleave is divided by 6 to do 4,000 points of damage to each person in melee range. A 24,000 point pre-armor hit is unbearable on the tank, but a 4,000 hit reduced by armor is trivial. The melee classes ARE soaking damage, but they're preventing spike damage on the tank.
Since 4,000 is a minimum amount, if the raid decides to stack 10 melee DPS on the boss, they'll end up taking 44,000 points of raidwide damage before armor from the cleaves.
If they try and stack full ranged DPS, the spike damage will make the tank unhealable.
In a situation like this melee attackers continue to take damage. Any more than the "ideal" number of melee attackers is a healing burden. Any less is a risk of spike damage. It is possible in a situation of unusual raid composition to get a healing paladin or a hunter to stand in range to be one of the divisors.
For Instance 5-man:
Same mechanic, but the "ideal" number of people in melee range might be 2 or 3. All damage from AoEs would be doubled on the tank if there wasn't at least 1 more person in melee range. In a situation with no melee dps in a 5-man, it would either need to be healed through, or a ranged attacker would have to be forced to take spell interruptions, or stand in deadzone to mitigate the tanks damage.
What does this ultimately mean?
More melee in melee range don't necessarily indicate a liability, at least not until they're past the number that the encounter was designed for.
Too few melee may mean that someone with lower avoidance or mitigation may have to stand in to prevent spike damage on the tank.
Personally, I think that all cleaves should be retuned to this sort of mechanic. With the ideal number of melee in a 5 man being 2, a 10 man being 4, and 25 man being 10.
General Cleavebutt is has a massive 24,000 point cleave which he uses every 10 seconds, starting 20 seconds into the fight. Blizzard has designed the encounter such that they expect 5 melee dps + 1 tank to be attacking general cleavebutt at all times.
This sounds very much like the meteor effects that big stone guys in AQ40 would do, where meteors damage would be divided between all targets. The proper strategy was to have everyone standing on top of the mob.
The problem with the mechanic you are suggesting is that nothing prevents that mage/warlock/healer (other than hunters) from standing within melee distance to split the damage on that fight.
This sounds very much like the meteor effects that big stone guys in AQ40 would do, where meteors damage would be divided between all targets. The proper strategy was to have everyone standing on top of the mob.
The problem with the mechanic you are suggesting is that nothing prevents that mage/warlock/healer (other than hunters) from standing within melee distance to split the damage on that fight.
Mitigation: 4k * (1-clothy avoidance) * (1-clothy mitigation) is a heck of a lot more than the equivalent numbers for Rogues or Fury Warriors, much maligned though those numbers may be.
Individual numbers may require tweaking, but I think the concept is sound.
This sounds very much like the meteor effects that big stone guys in AQ40 would do, where meteors damage would be divided between all targets. The proper strategy was to have everyone standing on top of the mob.
The problem with the mechanic you are suggesting is that nothing prevents that mage/warlock/healer (other than hunters) from standing within melee distance to split the damage on that fight.
He also suggested a hard capped minimum damage, meaning stacking casters in just adds to damage done. Casters are also going to take much more damage from a cleave than melee dps.
I haven't read this thread besides the OP, and I'm sure that this has been said, but because rogues and DPS warriors are more gear dependant than any ranged DPS, over time they will regain their positions at the top of damage meters. For now, yeah it sucks to be us. In a year though, it'll be just like old times.
Do you have any numbers to support this? From everything I've seen ranged scale at very comparable rates to rogues. Warriors still scale slightly better, but they are not as close to the ranged classes in dps as the rogues are currently.
As another fact, even if rogues are doing 10-15% more dps than other classes and things are the same as they are in most heroic fights and a good deal of current raid content they will still be left at home in favor of ranged dps. If it takes a healer to keep 4 rogues up while 5 ranged can go with just bandages then the ranged group does more damage even with rogues doing 15% individually. This is an old MC problem. 4 x 115% = 460% 5 x 100% = 500%. This doesn't get any better when you need more healing to the tune of 2 rogue healers and 1 healer for ranged. 3 x 115 = 345, 4 x 100 = 400. This looks really bad when the ranged healer is a shadowpriest who refills thier mana, does good damage and heals them all in one.
The old caster itemization issue used to be no +damage. Then it was only +damage. Now they have spell hit, spell crit, spell damage, school damage, spell penetration etc. Spell hit is even cheaper than melee hit despite requiring less of it. Casters scale fine now.
Ranged weapons for rogues/warriors comes in around 100 dps. There is a 1.5s cooldown on top of the attack speed of the ranged weapon.
I'm surprised it's that low. A 3.0 speed 72 dps bow would be 48 dps base at that delay, + 21 dps with 32 dps vendor arrows. So 69 DPS.
1500 RAP would then add 71 dps, so 140 dps. 20% crit would increase that to 168 dps, before armour.
So your unarmed autoattack does over 168 dps after all the misses, dodges, glances and parries on a 0 armour target. I'm impressed, since I don't think mine is as good as that.
I'm surprised it's that low. A 3.0 speed 72 dps bow would be 48 dps base at that delay, + 21 dps with 32 dps vendor arrows. So 69 DPS.
1500 RAP would then add 71 dps, so 140 dps. 20% crit would increase that to 168 dps, before armour.
So your unarmed autoattack does over 168 dps after all the misses, dodges, glances and parries on a 0 armour target. I'm impressed, since I don't think mine is as good as that.
Well I use a 1.5s thrown weapon, which means the global cooldown basically destroys the damage for chaining it. With a 3.0s bow it would definitely be higher. And yea, my unarmed attacks definitely do more than 168 dps.
Apparently, the developers are aware of the problems that melee DPS classes face, and will accordingly retune dungeon/raid content in a future patch (link).
Apparently, the developers are aware of the problems that melee DPS classes face, and will accordingly retune dungeon/raid content in a future patch (link).
If you didn't see the change in the 2.0.1 thread, many dungeon cleaves are changing to a 180 arc vise the current 360 arc.
This adds some skill to not being cleaved, also this helps melee pet survivibility as well (if you have skill in setting your pet in the right place).
Ya, just saw it. 2.1.0 looks like it could bring the fixes
I hope it comes soon as I am very frustrated with the current designs of the game. As it is, I spec'd prot just so I can get invites. Funny thing is I still have issues getting invites because there are too many prot tanks around and I can't bring dps to the raids LOL. Too many of us went prot due to the lack of invites we were getting. Can't win for trying.
02/20/07, 4:20 PM
Similar Threads
