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Old 02/15/07, 4:16 PM   #1
 Navaash
enjoys game, likely in minority
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Here's what I can think of off the top of my head as a mage:

- Non-unique improvement to Swift Starfire Diamond (like how Swift Skyfire Diamond is a non-unique upgrade to Swift Windfire Diamond. It's going to get real annoying having to farm up 8 Spirit Shards AND a different meta gem to move it from one helm to another if this isn't dealt with, especially if your side has trouble getting the Auchindoun buff

- Non-epic, non-unique gems with spell hit (I mean, what the fuck. Even common gems have melee hit and you're telling me that spell hit can only be had on unique epic gems? This seems like a huge oversight)

- As a corollary to that, cloth caster items with sockets and nontrivial spell hit (look at this list. Of that, mages can use... a T5 shoulder we won't be seeing for a while, gloves with no stats, pants with no stamina, a robe with no stamina, and blue gloves that are inferior even when gemmed. That leaves an okay blue robe, a decent pair of gloves and expensive BoE epic craftables. Way to go making sockets useful for us PvE magi)

What else jumps out at you as lacking?

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Old 02/15/07, 4:22 PM   #2
Whiteknight
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Proudmoore
Do unique gems retain their 'unique' property after socketing?

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Old 02/15/07, 4:29 PM   #3
Eugorym
Glass Joe
 
Murloc Rogue
 
Perenolde
Originally Posted by Whiteknight
Do unique gems retain their 'unique' property after socketing?
yes

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Old 02/15/07, 4:48 PM   #4
Nite_Moogle
I prefer the term treasure hunting
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
- Enhancement Shaman belt while leveling. I wore my AB girdle to 70 in beta.
- Ditto two-handed axes and maces. The Ring of Blood axe is really the only one you can pick up before 70.
- Lack of a BoE +dmg 1h sword before 60, there are plenty of daggers with that suffix but in weeks of watching the AH I've never seen a Paladin-usable +dmg sword for sale that was usable by 61. The first one you get with +dmg is at the very end of HFP, and it's got a whopping 11 +dmg.

Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.

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Old 02/15/07, 4:51 PM   #5
Ahiru
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Eonar
Originally Posted by Navaash
It's going to get real annoying having to farm up 8 Spirit Shards AND a different meta gem to move it from one helm to another
Assuming you keep the old helm around after getting a replacement. Vendor or DE the helm and the uniqueness issue is solved. The reason you're farming a new meta gem is because you got an upgrade anyway, right?

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Old 02/15/07, 4:56 PM   #6
Sebudai
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Sebudai
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Mail bracers with +spell damage. I'm still wearing my Zandalar Augur's Bracers.

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Old 02/15/07, 4:59 PM   #7
 Birdemani
Everybody knows that the bird is the word
 
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Birdemani
Orc Warrior
 
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Warrior DPS belt. I'm still using the Onslaught Girlde at 70.

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Old 02/15/07, 5:01 PM   #8
Vernichter
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Baelgun (EU)
Originally Posted by Ahiru
Originally Posted by Navaash
It's going to get real annoying having to farm up 8 Spirit Shards AND a different meta gem to move it from one helm to another
Assuming you keep the old helm around after getting a replacement. Vendor or DE the helm and the uniqueness issue is solved. The reason you're farming a new meta gem is because you got an upgrade anyway, right?
Your response highlights one of the fundamental problems of this itemization: you cannot get a socketable sidegrade. While this is not as much of an issue for mages as it is for some other classes, the fact remains that having multiple sets of gear is intergral to WoW endgame, even if the gear is only used situationally. The uniqueness qualifier on that meta-gem, coupled with the lack of suitable non-unique alternatives, means that any secondary helms with sockets will take a significant hit, which is not true for the melee DPS counterparts.

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Old 02/15/07, 5:09 PM   #9
 Navaash
enjoys game, likely in minority
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
- Lack of a BoE +dmg 1h sword before 60, there are plenty of daggers with that suffix but in weeks of watching the AH I've never seen a Paladin-usable +dmg sword for sale that was usable by 61. The first one you get with +dmg is at the very end of HFP, and it's got a whopping 11 +dmg.
This is because its DPS was not cannibalized to give it more spell damage. (Alliance Horde)

There's only one upgrade from that DPS-wise and it's off a vendor at the Stormspire

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Old 02/15/07, 5:16 PM   #10
Ahiru
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Eonar
Originally Posted by Vernichter
Your response highlights one of the fundamental problems of this itemization: you cannot get a socketable sidegrade. While this is not as much of an issue for mages as it is for some other classes, the fact remains that having multiple sets of gear is intergral to WoW endgame, even if the gear is only used situationally. The uniqueness qualifier on that meta-gem, coupled with the lack of suitable non-unique alternatives, means that any secondary helms with sockets will take a significant hit, which is not true for the melee DPS counterparts.
I haven't taken too close a look at the list of meta gems, but if you're talking about situational gear sets, shouldn't you be looking into situational meta gems as well? I find it hard to believe that one particular unique gem is going to be the most desirable for every one of your sets.

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Old 02/15/07, 5:31 PM   #11
Tharas
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Warrior
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by Navaash
- Non-epic, non-unique gems with spell hit (I mean, what the fuck. Even common gems have melee hit and you're telling me that spell hit can only be had on unique epic gems? This seems like a huge oversight)
Forgive my ignorance, but what was the "typical" T3-level (assuming clown-suit instead) +hit value on a mage? My understanding was that the spell-hit-cap for +3 level mobs was 16%. Melee miss rate for dual-wield against the same mob is ~24.6%. My fairly-well-geared warrior had/has like 12-15% hit depending on setup, but I couldn't imagine a mage stacking spell hit that high. (I also don't understand fully the interplay between +hit and +crit for an ice shards or ignite mage, sorry for that)

- As a corollary to that, cloth caster items with sockets and nontrivial spell hit (look at this list. Of that, mages can use... a T5 shoulder we won't be seeing for a while, gloves with no stats, pants with no stamina, a robe with no stamina, and blue gloves that are inferior even when gemmed. That leaves an okay blue robe, a decent pair of gloves and expensive BoE epic craftables. Way to go making sockets useful for us PvE magi)
This sounds like the bigger problem to me, honestly. I haven't started to level my mage past 60 to see this though.

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Old 02/15/07, 5:38 PM   #12
Nite_Moogle
I prefer the term treasure hunting
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Navaash
This is because its DPS was not cannibalized to give it more spell damage. (Alliance Horde)

There's only one upgrade from that DPS-wise and it's off a vendor at the Stormspire
Kinda the point: all the 'real' +dmg stuff around that level is a dagger or staff and thus not Paladin usable :) The first one I can find is in Terokkar.

Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.

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Old 02/15/07, 5:44 PM   #13
Tuftears
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Ahiru
Assuming you keep the old helm around after getting a replacement. Vendor or DE the helm and the uniqueness issue is solved. The reason you're farming a new meta gem is because you got an upgrade anyway, right?
Um hmm.

Question: what happens if you socket a helm with a unique metagem, vendor it, buy another unique metagem and socket it in your new helm, then attempt to buy the original helm back from the vendor?

We know that you can never have two unique items at the same time, and it will make the uniqueness check if you try to pop it out of the mail or the vendor buy-back slot, etc., but has that been tested for gems? It smacks of exploiting, but it'd be interesting to know what happens definitively.

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Old 02/15/07, 5:54 PM   #14
Lamaros
King Hippo
 
Orc Warlock
 
Dreadmaul
Originally Posted by Tharas
- As a corollary to that, cloth caster items with sockets and nontrivial spell hit (look at this list. Of that, mages can use... a T5 shoulder we won't be seeing for a while, gloves with no stats, pants with no stamina, a robe with no stamina, and blue gloves that are inferior even when gemmed. That leaves an okay blue robe, a decent pair of gloves and expensive BoE epic craftables. Way to go making sockets useful for us PvE magi)
This sounds like the bigger problem to me, honestly. I haven't started to level my mage past 60 to see this though.
The problem is just there are no +spell hit gems, put them in and the problem is solved. Some +spell hit +spell crit gems would be nice.

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Old 02/15/07, 6:15 PM   #15
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Healing bracers (Cloth & Leather) are basicly non existant untill MoV, or TKI in heroic - both of which are sadly cloth... wtb leather healing bracers before the black temple or so please..

Originally Posted by Vontre
I don't know anything

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Old 02/15/07, 6:36 PM   #16
Meddler
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Blackrock
A lack of tanking gear (plate or leather) with +hit on it is something I've noticed/had guild warriors comment on. It's a really useful stat for threat generation, particularly in high range situations/on a pull when you can't afford have abilities miss but seems to be remarkably hard to find on tanking items. Some options to make up for this socketing gems at least. not much in the way of enchants though. Getting some as a more common base tanking stat would seem entirely reasonable to me compared usual dose of strength instead.

Some major itemisation issues with a range of the hybrid specs as well which are still poorly itemised, particularly in raid drops seen so far - that's been well discussed elsewhere though and would be something of a derail.

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Old 02/15/07, 6:43 PM   #17
chuckg
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Warlock
 
Executus
The one that has me a bit miffed is the Mystical Skyfire Diamond requiring more blues than yellow. There isn't a DPS caster out there that's gear will allow this, even say a warlock who is affliction spec'd who doesn't use nukes anyway; DPS caster gear just has yellow inherently in it. As such, it seems that the gem is being pigeon holed to healers who's biggest gem color is typically blue (for the mp5). Pretty shitty, I think it 2% instant cast would scale out better than the 12dmg/move haste gem from spirit shards.

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Old 02/15/07, 7:11 PM   #18
Kalman
Super Macho Man
 
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<>
Orc Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Navaash
This is because its DPS was not cannibalized to give it more spell damage. (Alliance Horde)

There's only one upgrade from that DPS-wise and it's off a vendor at the Stormspire
Kinda the point: all the 'real' +dmg stuff around that level is a dagger or staff and thus not Paladin usable :) The first one I can find is in Terokkar.
There are drops in instances in HFC and CFR if he wants BOP +damage sword/maces.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24361
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24384

As to BoEs, I could swear I some DPS-sacrificing green swords as randoms.

Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.

Clearly law school has done wonders for me.

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Old 02/15/07, 7:13 PM   #19
Bibdy
Great Tiger
 
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Orc Warlock
 
Bonechewer
Even if you had 20 yellow slots and 1 red slot, you could still make the requirement. Throw 20 green gems (blue and yellow) in the yellow slots and a purple gem (blue and red) in the red slot and boom! You have more blue than yellow (21 blue, 20 yellow) and made all of the gem slot requirement bonuses on the individual items.

Thing is...

http://www.wowhead.com/?items=-2.5&f...1;crv=0,0;ma=1

Your choice of decent green gems for DPS casters is kind of limited...and the good ones with sta/crit are unique and obtained from 10 marks of Thrallmar or heroics.

If they replaced all the spell penetration for spell hit then I think it'd be a lot more reasonable. I mean, we're all going to get 20 spell penetration on our cloak. What do you really need more than that for?

Of course, if they kept to the scheme that blue gems = stamina and yellow gems = crit, why don't green gems = sta/crit in all cases? Curious...

Holy edits, Batman!

There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.

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Old 02/15/07, 7:36 PM   #20
Cat Astrophy
Glass Joe
 
Troll Mage
 
Darkspear
Excuse me but the unique gems are a very very small upgrade in comparison to their non-unique siblings. Save the unique gems for the set you will be wearing most of the time, and your sidegrade sets for specific situations can handle just fine with the non-uniques just barely under them.

What irritates me right now is the plethora of spell penetration on the caster gear. I firmly believe they have yet to convince the knowledgeable crowd that this stat makes any more of a significant impact in PvE outside of heartbeat resists on CC.

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Thus bad begins, and worse remains behind.
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Old 02/15/07, 7:43 PM   #21
 Tecton
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Worgen Druid
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
We know that you can never have two unique items at the same time, and it will make the uniqueness check if you try to pop it out of the mail or the vendor buy-back slot, etc., but has that been tested for gems? It smacks of exploiting, but it'd be interesting to know what happens definitively.
Tested it just now the Halaa gem, doesn't work.

Please contact me via PM/Twitter regarding any issues with Wrathcalcs or Treecalcs rather than whispering me in-game.

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Old 02/15/07, 7:51 PM   #22
Bibdy
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Orc Warlock
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by Cat Astrophy
Excuse me but the unique gems are a very very small upgrade in comparison to their non-unique siblings.
In the case of the Notched Deep Peridot and the Polished Chrysophase its the difference between (+X sta and +Y crit) vs (+Y crit). In my eye, the spell penetration is worthless (as you point out) and my brain just blanks it out when I'm mentally working out the value of something.

Although I haven't seen much in the way of spell penetration on our regular gear. But being a chief component of non-unique green gems annoys me - especially when blue gems = stamina and yellow gems = crit.

There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.

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Old 02/15/07, 8:09 PM   #23
Rule
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Ner'zhul
How about some non epic gems with resilience on them? They give us this new stat for pvp, but then the only way to get gems for it is 500(lol) halaa tokens, or heroics, where they often have +dodge or +parry to go with resil, which is perplexing. Would it really be so bad to have some blue gem patterns at least that include resil?

- More plate with +hit. Tanking plate and pvp plate is completely lacking +hit for the most part. You don't need that much for pvp, 5% ish is fine, but you need 8% for pve at least, and it's a real challenge getting there with gear i've seen so far.

I think the thing that irks me the most is that any gems at all are unique. It really puts a crimp on what you can do with them IMO, having to worry about replacing old gear as someone mentioned, and not being able to stack stats with the best gems available just goes against the whole spirit of gems - choice -

Formerly of Immortality on Skullcrusher
Formerly of Lost Anarchy on Ner'Zhul
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Old 02/15/07, 10:45 PM   #24
Maels
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Warlock
 
Dethecus
Originally Posted by chuckg
The one that has me a bit miffed is the Mystical Skyfire Diamond requiring more blues than yellow. There isn't a DPS caster out there that's gear will allow this, even say a warlock who is affliction spec'd who doesn't use nukes anyway; DPS caster gear just has yellow inherently in it. As such, it seems that the gem is being pigeon holed to healers who's biggest gem color is typically blue (for the mp5). Pretty shitty, I think it 2% instant cast would scale out better than the 12dmg/move haste gem from spirit shards.
I think the reasoning is the Mystical Skyfire Diamond is more PvP than PvE oriented, and the the stamina gems are blue. Though I do agree that it is still much better than +12 damage in 95% of any situation.

If you plan on PvPing and PvEing with different helms (what I'm doing), slap the Mystikal on the PvP and +12 damage on the PvE, since it's easier to meet the +12 damage gem requirements if you're maxxing for damage. Get +12 stamina on your PvE boots instead of Boar's Speed since the run increase won't stack.
If you don't plan on PvPing in a different helm, well :( . You're gonna have to do some math to figure out if changing your sockets to match the requirement is enough of an upgrade to warrant doing so.

Edit: +14 != +12

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Old 02/16/07, 12:12 AM   #25
Coriolis
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
- Enhancement Shaman belt while leveling. I wore my AB girdle to 70 in beta.
Actually belt was the one piece of gear I was really satisfied wearing as an enhancement shaman

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24360

Still using it at 70 and I'll take my time replacing it. Would be better if it had more hit and less crit but to have 4 good stats with a nice spread on one item is great and quite rare. Technically I'd like it if there was str on it, but there is just about no mail with str in game apart from shaman-only sets. Ironically some leather itemized with lots of str for feral druids (as opposed to rogues) can be quite nice for shamans when you don't need armor.

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