I think this tournament deserves a topic of it's own (hang me at noon if there already is a topic). I read a great article on ampedsports about this tournament and its possibilities:
So what do people think about this? I'm personally extremely excited about WoW finally getting a competitive and spectatorfriendly aspect to it and I look forward to hopefully watching commentated replays of the qualifiers and finals, seing what teams/classes/gear/guilds make it far. But the interest sadly seems low among the highend raiding community - isn't this the ladderbased competitive (and rewarding?) element to PvP they've been wanting?
I think that while there's a lot of overlap between the PVP and PVE communities, they are actually distinct communities. A lot of the people I know who really get excited about killing a new challenging boss encounter are just totally underwhelmed by PVP.
I expect you'll see a lot of people participating in the big Arena tournaments. They just won't necessarily be from high-end raiding guilds (although there will definitely be a presence from those groups.)
I always had a feeling highend raiders were PVE'ing because that was the only way they could fulfill their urge to compete and achieve, because - well PVP was lacking in content and reward. Maybe I was wrong and they are just carebears? :/
The lack of interest is also from the fact that BC is still brand new. Even for hardcore PvP adepts, there is still fun in exploring the new worlds, testing new gadgets, running some weird quests involving piloting a Fel Reaver and such. Maybe some people are not just ready yet or want to get that one last piece of equipment before they really feel like they have a chance in the arena tournament. Or maybe we're waiting to see if this really works out and if it's worth the considerable time investment. When the first tournament is over, more spectactors will want to become gladiators... and the whole thing will take off.
I like it, and its perfect for myself and my guild. The only thing I feel that should also be removed is the ability to have more then one class in arena and to remove most of the extra items, from professions. I know a 2v2 and 3v3 group that will consist of pure Shadow Priests. While my 2v2 group (Resto Shaman + Feral Druid) has beaten them before, its not exactly an easy fight. Just seems a bit OP imo. Same with having one or more shaman for bloodlust etc
Oh, and to comment on PvE and PvP. Most players, especially in my guild, only PvE'ed because thats were the competition was. PvP was just who played more, or longer. While in PvE it was more competitive and rewarding to defeat a boss. Many of the players in my guild since BC (who all were hardcore PvE) have started PvPing. While all are not good, and only a few have become decent, it still a new change.
Some people don't like having their e-peen threatened so they'd rather stick to scripted encounters where the NPC couldn't give a rat's-ass about one-shotting you.
I must be cruel only to be kind;
Thus bad begins, and worse remains behind.
--William Shakespeare (The Drama King)
And so many guilds are adjusting or collapsing due to the shifting game dynamics.
1. Forty -> ten -> twenty-five
2. Different pace of leveling, especially for those who rerolled Shamans and for guilds that didn't put in place mandatory leveling deadlines
3. Not as many people coming back as I thought, but plenty of people realizing they're burnt out enough where they don't want to deal with the new WoW.
I'll be interested in seeing how high-end raiding guilds deal with the Arenas. One guild has formed their Arena-5s around time zones. Most of the other Arena-5s have been built around personalities: one person had enough willpower and friends to form their ideal group.
From a utility stand-point, raiding guilds should do the Arenas. Showing up each week to lose 10 games will net you an epic armor piece of your choosing after a month in the Arena-5 bracket. This is due to the fact that the drop off from 1500 is so slight. A rating of 1500 would net an Arena-5 team 406 Arena points. An increase in your Elo rating of 250 would earn you an additional 273 Arena points while a decrease of 250 in your rating would only net you a loss of 49 Arena points.
If there was a specific time a guild knew they could queue up and get Arena matches instantaneously, it would take about an hour each week. Have people show up at a given time, pull everyone who shows up into a team, limit the number of games that team plays to 10, rotate people through to ensure they get their 30% of the games. If you're just there to farm, you don't have to worry about class combinations, synergies or even whether there's a healer in each team. Guild members stay in that team until Tuesday maintenance - when I presume Arena points will be awarded - and then quit their team in case they're not there at the next pre-designated time.
On the Ruin battlegroup, I've been going around onto different realms forums stating that if they have an Arena-5, they can queue up on Sundays at 3pm ET and know they'll be able to find a game quickly because my guild's teams will be in the Arena queue at that point. I'm sure there are other guilds with tremendous brand name recognition who'll be able to designate a time on their own battlegroups.
Ignie Ferroque translates from latin to "with fire & with sword." It is a stock phrase used to describe the results of a destructive raid into an enemy's territory, whose sole purpose is to generate fear, terror, and destruction.
Some people don't like having their e-peen threatened so they'd rather stick to scripted encounters where the NPC couldn't give a rat's-ass about one-shotting you.
Damn son - you have issues.
Be thankful I'm in a good mood (and we aren't on the new forums yet).
I intend to do all 3 types of matches altho with the current fucked-up state my guild is in finding people for each teams may be a challenge. I don't have any illusion of reaching the high ranks since those will be dominated by one-class teams using whatever overpowered ability of the day, but I do want some of that nice arena loot and it's something to do beside farming outside of instances.
Some people don't like having their e-peen threatened so they'd rather stick to scripted encounters where the NPC couldn't give a rat's-ass about one-shotting you.
Damn son - you have issues.
Be thankful I'm in a good mood (and we aren't on the new forums yet).
Not too sure if the other mods will share your opinion. :P
I'm actually really excited for the Arenas and arena tournaments. Coming from games like CS and Wc3, there's been a lot of public competition that I felt was lacking in WoW for quite some time. Instead of going up against eachother, we went against the clock for competition. It's like playing Mario Cart with one controller and taking turns doing the same race for a time score then comparing at the end. Not the same as having 4 people go at it against eachother.
Don't get me wrong though, I love raiding and I love going through new content but in the past it has gotten tedious at times. The new PvP system (if it all works out) will bring a whole new dimension to WoW and will provide people a great alternative.
That being said, there are plenty of people that I'm sure find no interest in PvP ladders or anything of the sort and will continue raiding along with plenty of people that have been deemed "casuals" because they've been more of the PvP kind that got left out of the picture in vanilla WoW. I feel like I'm one that will take advantage of the best of both.
Edit: Regarding 2v2 and 3v3 teams, Blizzard commented on this themselves. They made 5v5s worth more in every aspect because they want that to be the main form of competition, they said it's extremely hard to balance the game around small group PvP since there will always be combinations that counter others, whereas in 5v5 its more of a anyone can win if they play it right atmosphere.
Guild members stay in that team until Tuesday maintenance - when I presume Arena points will be awarded - and then quit their team in case they're not there at the next pre-designated time.
I considered people abusing that mechanic, but with 50g to form a 2v2 team and 200g to form a 5v5 it somewhat limits people team swaping.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Having taken my mage to Rank 13, and being in a pure PVP guild (after being burnt out on PVE), I think it's fair to say I've really enjoyed PVPing in WoW. Although admittedly to any organized pure PVP team, there wasn't much competition.
This announcement, while exciting, also makes me question a lot about the viability of such an endeavor. PVP has had *glaring* balance problems since day 1, many of which have not ever been properly addressed. I would like to comment that I do find PVE class balance to be *amazing* in it's current state (barring a few PVE dungeon tweaks to be more melee friendly), and I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is the most balance MMO ever, class-wise in PVE.
Hopefully Blizzard does something to address some of the overpowered abilities in PVP, but maybe that is simply the nature of WoWs PVP system. Maybe a few months down the road I'll be eating my words, but I really don't see any 5-man arena team *not* having an MS warrior and a Paladin of some sort. But who knows, the 5 warlock team is pretty ridiculous.
Some people don't like having their e-peen threatened so they'd rather stick to scripted encounters where the NPC couldn't give a rat's-ass about one-shotting you.
Damn son - you have issues.
Be thankful I'm in a good mood (and we aren't on the new forums yet).
Not too sure if the other mods will share your opinion. :P
It was not a direct comment about anyone here. I just believe that *some* people will prefer to PvE because they don't want be manhandled by someone w/ more skill than them and then have the opportunity to mock them (in-game or on forums).
If you are referring to my speculation, then that would be hypocritical. Everything about this topic of why hardcore PvEers might not be so excited about PvP Arena is pure speculation.
I'll also add that while the PvP arena is infinitely dynamic thanks to human-vs-human, the gear aquired still requires doing the same exact two maps over and over, as opposed to experiencing the things that raids offer as far as lore, mechanics that couldn't possibly be implemented in PvP, and the fact that some classes are simply not going to want to PvP given how they built their class with spec and gear.
I must be cruel only to be kind;
Thus bad begins, and worse remains behind.
--William Shakespeare (The Drama King)
It was not a direct comment about anyone here. I just believe that *some* people will prefer to PvE because they don't want be manhandled by someone w/ more skill than them and then have the opportunity to mock them (in-game or on forums).
Thats me. I play WoW to have a challenge thrown at me that I know is possible to overcome. By perseverance and hard work, I know I can eventually beat every PVE encounter. With PVP I know thats not the case. I can be outplayed every match, and I simply wont be able to beat certain combinations. That gets very fruastrating at times and has turned me off the whole PVP scene.
That being said, I'll still be making a 'casual arena team' to pick up some gear to improve our raiding ability. We're planning on having zero people respec from our pve builds for it, so our tree druids, holy paladins, prot warriors and the like are going to go have a laugh and get a few point instead :)
I like to PvP, but I am not all that excited about being an early adopter to this Arena ladder system. As Bliz watches the season, things are sure to change. I don't care to invest myself into it until they have it worked out. In addition to that, I believe that certain classes/specs just aren't viable. I guess if my main wasn't a warrior and was a mage or warlock I would be on a team right now. It will be interesting to see how the PvP imbalances in this game play out on the ladder system.
Relwin: Besides, the BB is not some ivory tower of WoW knowledge, it's just less stupid here than elsewhere. DeeNogger: Not less stupid, better stupid. The BB takes stupid very seriously. Now if you will excuse me, I have to go misspell the word fire.
I find it incredibly frustrating that the disconnect bug upon zoning into arenas that has existed since beta hasn't been fixed by now, especially with word of this tournament. I'm the hyper-competitive sort, and the idea of losing to a bug like this - with the potential stakes - really irks me.
Then again, BG9 didn't even have functional BG/arena instances last night at all, so maybe that's the least of my worries.
I find it incredibly frustrating that the disconnect bug upon zoning into arenas that has existed since beta hasn't been fixed by now, especially with word of this tournament. I'm the hyper-competitive sort, and the idea of losing to a bug like this - with the potential stakes - really irks me.
Then again, BG9 didn't even have functional BG/arena instances last night at all, so maybe that's the least of my worries.
Does this happen everytime for you? The only bug that matches anything close to that description is the random disconnect every once in a while when entering/leaving an instance, and that isn't really limited to arenas.
I find it incredibly frustrating that the disconnect bug upon zoning into arenas that has existed since beta hasn't been fixed by now, especially with word of this tournament. I'm the hyper-competitive sort, and the idea of losing to a bug like this - with the potential stakes - really irks me.
Then again, BG9 didn't even have functional BG/arena instances last night at all, so maybe that's the least of my worries.
Does this happen everytime for you? The only bug that matches anything close to that description is the random disconnect every once in a while when entering/leaving an instance, and that isn't really limited to arenas.
Perhaps it simply seems like it's arena related because people enter/leave arenas far more often than any other type of instance. It doesn't happen every time, but it happens too often.
It was not a direct comment about anyone here. I just believe that *some* people will prefer to PvE because they don't want be manhandled by someone w/ more skill than them and then have the opportunity to mock them (in-game or on forums).
It seems that your post(s) are more about your want to eviserate someone's ego then anything else. I was of a mind that these forums were more for quality posts, then realm forum level, "AMG I PWNED YOU NEWBS IN TEH WSGS!1"
Let us suppose for one minute that either now, in the future, or in the past, some small tweak to game balance will allow a two warlock team to fear their match-up from start to death, without counter. I'm not saying it is the case now, that there's a specific need for a nerf, or anything. I'm asking in the hypothetical, imagine some combination that is ridiculous that is such because of a balance oversight. Surely it isn't asking too much to suspect Blizzard is staffed by humans who are capable of mistakes, especially in such a large combinatorial system as a 2's arena team with 9 classes and 3 talent trees each.
I am sure everyone finds the realm posts by the rocket scientists who solve for two warlocks to be an integral part of enjoying WoW, and anyone who doesn't - as you clearly suggest - is an e-coward.
Alternatively, some might turn to Barlett's breakdown of primary motivators to MMO players, which has the four poles - Killer, Socializer, Achiever, Explorer. I have absolutely no idea why any of those poles might possibly prefer PvE (which is still a fairly large scale activity - 25 people a raid, and probably ~70 people in an "average" guild to staff that raid) over PvP (which has just gotten noticably smaller an activity, down from 10 in WSG to 2 in Arena).
Nope, no idea why anyone who likes to game to socialize, achieve, or explore might possibly be more interested in going strange new places with lots of people with new challenges.
Everybody is your brother until the rent comes due.
Even if you aren't aiming for a top spot, it is 'leaving money on the table' to not be on a 5v5 arena team. Even if you are terrible, which any organized raid guild probably won't be, you still can earn a fair amount of points/week. There is no reason not to get your 10 games in and start earning points.
Here's a link to a rating's point calculator: http://www.boxspherical.com/arena/index.php . Starting rating for a team are 1500. Here's what you earn for various different ratings.
1000: 305 - I doubt anyone would get this low. Teams will probably disband and reform first.
1300: 367
1400: 387 1500: 408 - Starting rating
1600: 504
1700: 616
1900: 893
So yes, top rated teams will get their points pretty quickly. But even a truly awful team (1000 Rating), will be able to buy their Sword of a thousand truths after a month and half. And it shouldn't take more than 1-2 hours to qualify for your points for the week.
Some people don't like having their e-peen threatened so they'd rather stick to scripted encounters where the NPC couldn't give a rat's-ass about one-shotting you.
Originally Posted by Cat Astrpohy
I just believe that *some* people will prefer to PvE because they don't want be manhandled by someone w/ more skill than them
Because clearly skill is defined as result = random(1,100) where result = 1-25 and your trinketed AP Frostbolt+icelance combo crits for 15k and 26-100 means a completely different result. I can only hope my children grow up to be a tenth as awesome as you. Maybe an eighth.
You don't by chance spend a lot of time outside Orgrimmar or Ironforge, do you?
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
It was not a direct comment about anyone here. I just believe that *some* people will prefer to PvE because they don't want be manhandled by someone w/ more skill than them and then have the opportunity to mock them (in-game or on forums).
It seems that your post(s) are more about your want to eviserate someone's ego then anything else. I was of a mind that these forums were more for quality posts, then realm forum level, "AMG I PWNED YOU NEWBS IN TEH WSGS!1"
I am sure everyone finds the realm posts by the rocket scientists who solve for two warlocks to be an integral part of enjoying WoW, and anyone who doesn't - as you clearly suggest - is an e-coward.
So you are in the mind that quality posts are what belongs on this forum yet you try and equivocate me saying some (repeat, some, repeat, some, repeat, some...is it clear to you now? I tried to emphasize it earlier, apparently not enough) to everyone? SOME people (repeat) SOME people would choose not to PvP because they don't want to have to deal with dynamic encounters they cannot control (non-scripted) on top of the aspect that SOMEONE (I never said ME) could mock them in-game or on the boards.
And Nite_Moogle, it's pretty sad that you had to jump in here with a nerf mages post.
Both of you obviously have a nerve struck pretty hard by what was said and lack a clear enough head to not come back with childish banter.
And Nite, no, dueling isn't real PvP.
I must be cruel only to be kind;
Thus bad begins, and worse remains behind.
--William Shakespeare (The Drama King)
Yeah, I never played Starcraft online because the learning curve was too steep and I didn't like taking so many beatings and tauntings along the way, I guess my ego is too fragile to not be the best in everything. However, WoW PVP is pretty simple, and you can insulate everything by getting superior gear, so fear is probably less of a problem. I mean, I was scared the first time I did WoW PVP, but I realized I was already at least average the first game I ever played. Also, there is the fact that you will be earning rewards no matter how bad you are, which should soothe the pain.
I just wish World PvP was more competitive rather than a grind for so-so rewards or a struggle for a minor buff. Arena is the direction I've been wanting PvP to head but sometimes I'd wouldn't mind the FFA that is World PvP (no restrictions) if it were more competitive. And this coming from a Hordie.
I must be cruel only to be kind;
Thus bad begins, and worse remains behind.
--William Shakespeare (The Drama King)
Some people don't like having their e-peen threatened so they'd rather stick to scripted encounters where the NPC couldn't give a rat's-ass about one-shotting you.
Right.
And Nite, no, dueling isn't real PvP.
No, it's really not. "Real" pvp where you actually need to be aware of your surroundings and aren't cascading every cooldown you have doesn't really exist in WoW. There are any number of other examples from other classes I could have used, the mage combination is something obvious. The point is this: regardless of the dynamic nature of PVP, the scale of damage output and inherent randomness of a number of abilities is still too high for a single lucky occurrence of any number of variables to not matter immensely, and small-scale battles can be extremely frustrating for this reason. On the other hand, there are some people that really enjoy this dynamic: even if you are outgunned you still have a chance of winning (I remember laughing my ass off when my ZG-geared warrior took down another warrior in full Wrath with an Ashkandi one-on-one in AV). The paper-rock-scissors aspect of class design further complicates matters. WoW PVP is not highly controllable game where superior skill will trump dumb luck (Starcraft was mentioned above and is an excellent example of a game that requires genuine skill). You can be the best player of your class in all of Warcraft and sooner or later a freak occurrence or perfectly stacked team will bring you down. Implying that you aren't hardcore because you don't enjoy placing your bets on a random number generator as you did is retarded, just like it is retarded to tell someone that because all they do is PVP they aren't hardcore.
Edit: damn these random line breaks, I need to go home. Some content added.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
02/16/07, 11:44 AM
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