Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion » Public Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02/21/07, 12:08 PM   #16
Roses
Banned
 
Blood Elf Priest
 
Darrowmere
Originally Posted by Vazu View Post
Honestly, the best teams we've seen have almost exclusively run:

Warrior
Rogue
Shaman (Resto)
Druid (Feral)
Paladin (Some form of Holy/Prot)
This might seem like a better variant on the tri-healer team. In this case druid cyclones and removes an opposition to turn it into a 5v4. I'm still not convinced though that the resto shaman is a good choice since all the healing in this party has a casting timer.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 12:13 PM   #17
Keline
King Hippo
 
Keline's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Mazrigos (EU)
defensive dispell isn't that important anymore really. Warlocks top stuff off with UA, so you'd better not dispell it, shadow priests now spam so many buffs you'd be too busy dispelling. I cleansed far more often at level 60 PVP.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 12:18 PM   #18
Avair
The Howard Roark of Shipwrights
 
Avair's Avatar
 
Avair
Human Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Enhancement shaman will never be viable in a competitive PvP setting because they are too easy to train on.
I don't disagree, and that to me seems like the major flaw of shamans, lack of survivablity, not lack of CC or anti-CC.

In practice though, what then is difference between an MS warrior and an Enhancement shaman for ease of training? Plate without a shield isn't that much more mitigation than mail. Other than intimidating shout, what prevents warriors from getting trained down just as fast?

defensive dispell isn't that important anymore really.
Fear, seduce and sheep come to mind as being the most important reasons to have defensive dispelling.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 12:24 PM   #19
Roses
Banned
 
Blood Elf Priest
 
Darrowmere
In practice, warriors have far more useful debuffs than enhancement shamans and bring more to the table offensively. Mortal strike, hamstring, shouts, etc. Shaman totems are nice, but a shaman of any spec can provide the same (and most enhancement shamans don't spec into totem buffing talents unless they are raiding). Enhancement shamans have only stormstrike and shocks as semi-debuffs, and NO STUN (this hurts a lot). Rogues have a variety of debuffs as well as stun, superior burst damage that is activated rather than procced. Windfury procs are rather undependable in PvP, and you need to be able to damage "on demand" when a target is chosen. They cannot get out of snares/slows like rogues/warriors can (sprint/charge), and they have no dispel methods for magical debuffs.

This should tell you how useful enhancement shamans are in PvP: with 15 points in restoration I was healing the elemental shaman in BGs rather than trying to melee.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 12:27 PM   #20
Keline
King Hippo
 
Keline's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Mazrigos (EU)

In practice though, what then is difference between an MS warrior and an Enhancement shaman for ease of training? Plate without a shield isn't that much more mitigation than mail. Other than intimidating shout, what prevents warriors from getting trained down just as fast?
Hitpoints as well, and the fact that assist training a warrior that is getting spamhealed is by far the fastest way to lose, as he'll spam HS MS WW to no end.

Fear, seduce and sheep come to mind as being the most important reasons to have defensive dispelling.
true, but with PVP trinkets and whatnot it's still not as important as it used to be

Last edited by Keline : 02/21/07 at 12:33 PM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 12:29 PM   #21
Malan
Mike Tyson
 
Malan's Avatar
 
Malan
Tauren Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Elendril View Post
Shaman are weird. The have purge, but no dispel for their own team.
Really? Because I tend to think that Dispel Poison and Dispel Disease fit that description.

They have totems, which aren't dispellable
They have 5 health, you don't need to dispel them, just hit them once.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 12:35 PM   #22
Roses
Banned
 
Blood Elf Priest
 
Darrowmere
I'd love to see priests get an instant cast disease debuff so that dispel disease is actually worth ANYTHING in PvP. Or give us the ability to dispel poisons like paladins can. -.- But I digress.

I find it odd that no one has mentioned how mages/warlocks seem to be sidelined by physical DDs in arenas. Can a team composed of 2-3 healers and magic DDs fare well against an onslaught of physical damage?

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 12:48 PM   #23
subscience
Great Tiger
 
subscience's Avatar
 
Orc Mage
 
Ner'zhul
Shamans also have, potentially, the best spell cast prevention spell. Earth Shock is ranged, has a short cooldown (5s with Reverberation talent) when compared to Counterspell, Silence, and Spell Lock, and has a 20 yard range. Rogues may be able to stop more consecutive spell casts, but Shamans have the benefit of doing this from range and adding damage on top of that (whereas a Rogue using Kick wastes potential damage from the Energy spent). The only thing a Shaman forfeits when interrupting a spell is global cooldown. If mana is a factor, rank 1 ES can be used as well.

Edit- But I'm also very interested in hearing how Elemental Shaman are faring in both raid and PvP settings. I'm going to be rolling one soon and it's been about two years since I played a Shaman (I was 23 Elem, 7 Enh, 21 Resto) and I'll most definitely be using an Elemental / Restoration build, but I'm unsure which tree I want to focus primarily on.

Last edited by subscience : 02/21/07 at 12:54 PM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 12:57 PM   #24
Elendril
KINDOFABIGDEAL
 
Elendril's Avatar
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Really? Because I tend to think that Dispel Poison and Dispel Disease fit that description.


They have 5 health, you don't need to dispel them, just hit them once.
Dispel Poison and Dispel Disease don't remove Entrapment, Polymorph, or Freezing Trap.

And I'm quite aware that totems are easily killable once you target them - the issue is spending the time to target them and the attack timer to kill them. In the arena, time is your most valuable resource. If I spend my time hitting totems, I'm not hitting my opponents. I have a /tar (list of totems) /petattack macro that i mash against teams with totems, because I can't afford to spend time killing them myself.

As for the other post saying defensive dispels are less important because of UA and shadow priest debuffs - Shadow Priests and UA warlocks are two of the most outright vulnerable classes in 5v5. I have yet to see an effective team that uses either. Competant assist trains almost immediately hit warlocks, and if they're not soul link, they pretty much just die.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 1:02 PM   #25
Clang
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Whisperwind
Enhancement shaman have huge burst potential. Two hard hittting one handers can wreak havoc on a caster. To start off with a stormsrike - you will hit with the stormstrike, two white damage hits, and most of the time four windfury hits, followed by an earth shock. Although the high end on a two handed weapon will be more damaging, the extra weapon to windfury makes a huge difference.

On a 3 v 3 team or a 5 v 5 team with proper support, they can be more effective than an elemental shaman. All mana can be used towards purging constantly, and when oom the ability to heavily burst doesn't lessen. Also the elemental shaman is too easily removed by effective counters- the vast majority of their damage is nature based. One counter spell is an 8 second silence that includes heals - making the shaman effectively useless.

There are some slight mitigations, such as grounding totem and earth shock, but the class does suffer from survivability. Tremor totem works, but not well, and the shaman trinket only removes stuns and immobilizes - not fear or sheep. For an enhancement shaman the big problem is closing the gap - there is no charge, there is no stun to stop them. Using frost shock limits your counter abilities with earth shock, and using earthbind makes you much more vulnerable to fear. In 2 v 2 ranged damage will typically tear apart an enhancement shaman before they are a huge threat.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 1:03 PM   #26
Ignayshus
Piston Honda
 
Human Priest
 
Bleeding Hollow
Not to mention the fact that "topping off" with UA is pointless, because the dispel order is random.

In the testing I've done, the first and last buffs are the most sticky, but the order of removal is random.

The last digit of Pi is delicious.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 1:08 PM   #27
Necrotoid
WoW Forums Refugee
 
Necrotoid's Avatar
 
Undead Warlock
 
Lightning's Blade
I agree completely with the comments on the undesirable role of Enhancement shaman in PvP.

However, not much has been said about warlocks, apart from Elendril's post. I would be curious what roles people have found them to be strong in, and what roles to be weak in. I only have a week's experience in 5v5 so far, and improved Howl of Terror has been amazing. Beyond that, I'm still struggling to find what is best the class can bring to the table.

DOT and rot.
Travian: Phased Weasel, -144 | 61, Damascus.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 1:10 PM   #28
Eej
Soda Popinski
 
Eej's Avatar
 
Eej
Troll Hunter
 
No WoW Account
The main problem with Elemental Shamans is that their burst is ridiculously easy to predict. Mind you, this might be because my guild has traditionally been full of 33/0/18 Shamans for years, but they typically blow their load within the first 30 seconds. Elemental Shamans (or Shamans in general) are really easy to lock down. For example, one rogue will easily keep an Elemental Shaman occupied for an indefinite amount of time.

It's just important for whoever is being assisted on to pay attention to where the Ele Shaman is at all times, in order to LOS his nukes if possible. Otherwise, assigning someone to screw around with them the whole time can easily throw off the Shaman's assisting.

An Enhancement Shaman definitely does not belong in 5v5. A melee class without a Mortal Strike debuff or significant locking down ability seems like dead weight to me, unless the Enhancement Shaman is ridiculously good (I've never seen one). I feel the same way towards Ret Paladins.

As for Resto Shamans, well, Overrated used to run a group with a Resto Shaman and no Paladin and hey, they're doing pretty well now.

Originally Posted by Necrotoid View Post
However, not much has been said about warlocks, apart from Elendril's post. I would be curious what roles people have found them to be strong in, and what roles to be weak in. I only have a week's experience in 5v5 so far, and improved Howl of Terror has been amazing. Beyond that, I'm still struggling to find what is best the class can bring to the table.
We ran into a Destruction specced Warlock that we handled improperly for the first few games, then we figured them out and regained the points we lost from losing and then some. Basically he had tons of stamina, would run around trying to get the melee assist train on him and would assist on their main target with backlashed shadowbolts and shadowburns. So when I switched off him and we just left the Warrior on him he basically did nothing the whole game.

Last edited by Eej : 02/21/07 at 1:13 PM. Reason: I'm bad at checking thread before I post

Canada Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 1:16 PM   #29
Elendril
KINDOFABIGDEAL
 
Elendril's Avatar
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Ner'zhul
I've seen teams use warlocks effectively in 5v5, but they've almost universally been either soul link or destruction. Curse of Tongues and Felhunter spell lock, along with various fears, are all great disruption, and if you can do all of this with the survivability of soul link you're a tremendous nuisance. Destruction warlocks have tons of burst potential, but they're highly vulnerable to an assist train, since they're cloth without defensive abilities like Ice Block or Blessed Resiliance. I've never seen a good 5s team with an affliction warlock - UA is annoying, but it has a cast time so you can't get it off if you're being assisted down, and it doesn't kill people fast enough.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/07, 1:20 PM   #30
Avair
The Howard Roark of Shipwrights
 
Avair's Avatar
 
Avair
Human Rogue
 
No WoW Account
This whole discussion should be focused on Arena, and particularly 5v5, since that is the bracket that matters. It is worth challenging assumptions learned in BG, world PvP and dueling. This isn't AV.

Don't attack the warrior has long been a 'fact' of PvP. But why is that? Here are some theories to why.
1. Attacking them gives them rage which allows them to make full use of their attacks. If you leave them alone they are less dangerous.
2. Attacking them gives them enrage, again, more dangerous.
3. Backed up by heals, they are hard to kill. (This is the assumption I'm challenging here)
4. They can be 'safely' ignored, since they just aren't that dangerous. (If this were true it would be a reason not to bring them at all)

Hitpoints as well, and the fact that assist training a warrior that is getting spamhealed is by far the fastest way to lose, as he'll spam HS MS WW to no end.
Again, in practice, how many more hitpoints do warriors have then similarly geared shaman? Compare the Gladiator itemization for:

* Warriors - http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=567
* Enhancement Shaman - http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=578

Total difference
* Warriors: +2511 armor, +9 stamina, -1 resilience, +2 Str, -1 crit

Armor is only relevant if the damage is physical. So other than more armor and intimidating shout, how are enh shaman any harder to kill than a 2H warrior?

Balance Question/Speculation
As a side note, assuming Enh shaman are too weak in PvP to be viable, what would getting a version of rogues 'Quick Recovery' do for balance? Basically, increase the effect of all heals (only on themselves) by 20% or so? This would certainly make them much more survivable, but is it too much/not enough?

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion » Public Discussion

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can pally/rogue beat pally/warrior? Erandan Player vs. Player 34 06/22/07 6:07 PM
Priest arena discussion sadistic Player vs. Player 44 05/08/07 8:47 AM
[Shaman] 2v2/5v5 Arena Cull Class Mechanics 21 04/05/07 12:46 PM
Is there consensus on the Shaman/Priest/Pally core? Igni Public Discussion 0 02/21/07 11:06 AM
Pally blessing priority for an enhance shaman? discofiend Public Discussion 31 10/05/06 10:47 PM