I know a lot of guilds raid Karazhan now, and many are about to start Gruul. I also know many of those guilds have people who are left out of those runs simply because of their class. You may be in a raiding guild but not actually be raiding. I know one guild that has 2 priests and 9 mages. It's easy to see what happens there. I know one top end guild that is also short on priests and actively powerleveling dreanei priests to replace people who can't get a raid spot.

On a longer term view, this also means that there'll be those people who have had a raid spot since the very first week of the very first Kar group (usually priests, warriors, druids) and will be fully geared, completely bored of the place, and other people will have only been there for a short while and will have missed it on some weeks when it's been full of x class and still need gear from there, while the guild is trying to push on.

How are you guys handling this now that it's a very visible issue? Do you see many people rerolling into more wanted classes, or just waiting patiently? Did anyone reroll because of it, or leave and try to join another guild? Personally my guild slowly died since TBC came out and we've had no luck with raiding. Fortunately I've been able to do Karazhan runs with some friends, but it's been less reliable than if it had been a solid guild group. I thought about rerolling but in the end I prefer playing the class I like rather than ensure myself a raiding spot with a priest.

You're alliance. Do you not have paladins that are specced holy? They can heal MTs better than priests nowadays. I suspect part of the problem is Blizzard gimping the priest class so badly that most of them either rerolled something else or stopped playing on alliance side. On horde side, since there were no paladins for a long while, priests had the safe spot for healing. That may change, as there are plenty of horde shadowpriests, and a lot of hordies are interested in paladins.

Our guild actually has the opposite problem. We have plenty of shamans, a bunch of upcoming paladins level 60+, a few priests, and had NO mages pre-BC. It won't get better until our only two mages hit 70. Stacking mages is actually not a terrible idea, especially for 25-mans, but Karazhan is the entry point, so you do need that before you go anywhere else. Priests are not the best single target healers that they once were, and having paladins/druids/shamans is actually superior to having multiple priests.

For the most part we usually have DPS classes sitting out (rogues/mages/hunters/warlocks)--not because of any class limitations but simply because those are the classes from which we lost the least people transitioning to level 70.

Hasn't really been much of an issue for us at all. There's always the paladin/shaman option if you want to reroll.

We had a similar problem with the Priest and Mage situation. After we killed Kel'thuzad, many of our priests (6) left the game. From our Naxx days, we currently have ONE member priest (who recently has basically stopped playing his priest, in favor of a druid). Also, we had multiple players switch their mains to Mages since expansion.

To compensate, we chose to run multiple raid groups. However we're now seeing the aftereffect of that choice in slowed progression. However we don't have many people wanting to reroll priests for the specific reason you mentioned, enjoyment.

It'll be interesting to see where this goes, I'm tied between both the multiple groups, and forming a powerhouse group. Sadly, I don't think its possible to have both.

How many Karazhan raids are guilds finding themselves fielding, who are also interested in being tuned for 25 man raiding?

We are running 2 a week and looking into adding a third, but don't want to grow so much that many people must sit out of 25 man.

2 a week, ~35 online a night. But we believe adding a 3rd raid will be a nightmare with people missing some days occasionally as well as trying to keep the "talent" equal in the groups to prevent splittering / animosity.

We did 1 raid for 2 weeks I believe it was, the cream of the guild. We split up last reset to accomodate newly keyed 70's. Was a much rougher week but did clear everything but prince and nightbane (had prince down the previous week). But this was also the same week when kara was "buffed".

We have a massive surplus of dps classes, but not enough competent tanks and healers to run a second group. It's currently causing a lot of stress and animosity, and I anticipate several eventual /gquits. Thankfully we are running a bidding system so at least those with currently guaranteed spots won't accumulate a permanent dkp lead.

It pretty much sucks balls all around. Making the entry-level raid a long 10-man on a 7-day timer was a huge mistake.

We have what seems like 8 Kara's going this week, so this was a huge issue 1-3 weeks ago when we had 1-2 Kara groups, but it's turning into less of an issue as new leaders step up and create more 10-man Kara groups. We are slightly heavy with DPS classes.

I know who you are talking about and thats untrue. A bunch of priests quit for RL issues, 1 is having significant PC issues atm, another is euro so its basically 1 "active" priest. The Draenai priest thing is true, because I've seen the easy mode and I am not even going to try to defend it. I am a night elf racist, I want something thats not a night elf in a priest because I'd like to for once just take the path of least resistance. Thats not replacing people who can't even getting a slot, thats doing what you can to ensure a regular raiding body.

But more so on topic, I suggest to anyone who suffers from sitout-itus, you need to just accept your lot or reroll, because no guild is going to try to manage 2 25 person raiding groups, its an administrative headache to do because the smaller constraints requires even more min maxing of class selection, and you deal with people who can't raid randomly on X days, and its even worse because 1 person missing can have a very significant impact.

We tried 3 Karazhan groups and we'd have people just unable to attend the days the groups were doing it, and its really not worth it to do the latter parts of the zone with 8-9 people because 1-2 people in each group wasn't able to be online, but 2 has been consistantly easier to manage. At this point I don't see much reason to run more than 2 groups and just shuffle up the people to get the Nightbane quest item weekly. The gear upgrades in the zone are dubious in a lot of cases so while you could argue the more groups running the zone the better, its not actually true considering the sheer volume of loot which is either a downgrade, a sidegrade, or only suits 1 very specific class and spec (and you might not even have that person in your raid group, so it rots anyway).

We have around 28 active raiders and run two Karazhan groups. I find slotting 14 people into a 10-man group is extremely effective, as it still allows class flexibility if necessary and gives a buffer if one or two people have to work late or can't go otherwise. People have to sit out on occasion, but we just hug it out if feelings are hurt.

As for class balance problems, of those 28 people, 5 are warriors and 5 are paladins (perhaps left over from the days of warrior-stacking). We have at least 2 of every other class though, so I'm fairly comfortable with it and we can have 1 class available for both teams. What's harsh, though, is when there's a great player who's interested in applying but they're a paladin or warrior and I'm not sure if it'd be fair to keep stacking those classes.

We currently run 2 karazhan raids with a decent night being 32 people around that are able to go to kara. What I was looking at and the guild with 35 people and 2 raids as well may consider is this: You fill the 3rd raid with generally flaky attendance people and don't try to force it through too much as long as you are getting them through some early bosses and getting extra upgrades without hurting raid 1&2s full clear potential it seems like a good thing.

We created 2 Kara Teams atm, a third is in creation Each team has about 12 members to make sure we have the 10 to do it and that we also have flexibility. We have a lto of members in the guild and we plan doing 2 25mans group of about 30 members for the same reasons... So far, it's not much of a headache, exept the trying to get 1 team more EST friendly and the other more PST friendly part.

We're staying a bit larger than the avg "25 man" raid, but then again we have a lot of quality people and I don't feel like kicking them just because there's some avg guild size to aspire to. They've been mostly ok with sitting out and finding 5 man heroics. That said, there's always a bit of griping if what you really wanted to do tonight was x and you have to do y instead.

We have three kara runs going atm, basicly formed by volunteer raid leader types as people keyed, and aside from talking with each other to make sure one raid doesn't lock 9 healer types, the organization is mostly "who wants to go". The first of these groups formed on our forums from a "I'm starting a kara group" post when the first set of 70s hit their keys, and they're working on nightbane. The second formed the same way but included a "only raiding twice a week" type clause and they're on nether? The last group was started by our main tank 2 cycles in when we had enough keyed for a third group (I'm our progression raid leader for 25 man stuff, but I find myself going with whoever's the furthest behind in the kara groups because I know the zone very well and I enjoy tagging along when I can.) and they're midway through.

The instance is easy enough to explain quickly that you can bring people who are competent but new to the zone, which is a nice perk. It's also a tremendous help to bring even a single person who's done it all, because the fights are memorable enough that even our most tongue tied members can give a veritable dictionary entry on any of the fights. The gear is also not hugely better than heroic 5 man stuff from what we've seen. I have the Sun Eater - I like it better than The King's Defender. Stuff like that is happening all over the place. If you can't go to kara, go clear heroic X.

I think every guild has a bit of the "omg smaller content, now there's a (larger-than-expected) wait list" stuff going on (even the groups that tried to downsize that I've talked to have more of a waitlist than they expected because they downsized with all the hardcore 100% attendance types). It's going to be a bit bumpy while people get used to it, but to be honest, I like the thought of me missing a progression night isn't the end of the world. (Well maybe I shouldn't miss as the raid leader, but I'm pretty jealous of the member benefits of rebirth).

Obviously this is going to change based on your guild's focus, but we've never wanted to be nihilium (crazy, but fun) or DnT (Equally crazy/fun) or even Mechanical Squirrels (Crazy in a different way, still fun). We've wanted to be ourselves, and part of being ourselves is those extra people on the wait list. Another part is killing dragons. Conveniently, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

I suppose the lesson to take from this is: everyone wants to be at tommorrow today. Slow down, enjoy today, and remember that tommorrow will get here soon enough. Lastly, if you are not doing something and you feel angry at someone else about it, instead ask yourself why you're not organizing whatever it is you want to do. Even when we have 3 kara raids running, it's not too difficult for the other people to find a 5 man, although they might have to go out of guild for a healer/tank/cc. Maybe that's just skywall having a semi-decent atmosphere though.

Perhaps the other lesson to take from this: Unless you plan on starting up your own guild, it's going to be insanely difficult to find a guild to join in the next month or so.

I try telling this to my sub-outs all the time but everyone feels that they are entitled to a raid spot because of "reason 1" or "reason 2" and most will go to the point of explaining, at length, why they should get a spot and not someone else.

Basically what I've told people is that "I am not your mommy", nor do I particularly care what their reasoning is. I also told them to make their own raids with other members of the guild but no one wants to take on that responsibility, they figure since they are in a guild that is doing well that all of the behind the scenes stuff will be taken care of for them. Unfortunately, even some of my officers have this mindset and one went so far as quitting the guild last night because the team he was in charge of didn't end up coming together (tanks were late). He later rejoined after realizing that he had made a rash decision.

I don't remember who posted it but someone said having a long 10man on a 7-day timer as the first instance was a poor idea. I'd have to agree somewhat considering all the logistical problems many guilds are having. But on the other hand would throwing people in a 25man instance right away and then downsizing the instances later be any better? I mean, in that situation you now have 25 people who have become accustomed to raiding all the time now competing for spots in a 10man, which could potentially be even worse.

Our guild is large (over 225 active accounts, ~450 toons). We run two fixed ~30 man raid teams (with a 3rd in process of being formed). The fixed raid teams form their own 10 man Kara teams. If they have a hole in one of the groups they can pull from the general pool of guildies not on a fixed raid team.

By having the fixed raid teams run their own Kara runs together they are learning each others play styles. This will help them tackle the 25 man content without having to deal with class rotations or newer players unfamiliar with current content or how the team functions together.

One of the things that slowed down our PVE progress pre-TBC was the high number of people joining the raid each week who either hadnt run that content before, or had sat out for a few weeks. By creating smaller fixed teams within the guild, those people can progress together more rapidly than a single large general guild team. (one team making good progress on Gruul)

Of the people left over without a fixed raid team, the majority are DPS. Warlocks are definitely in oversupply and some will be without a raid team even after the 3rd fixed team is formed. I believe this is a direct result of the PVP emphasis for the last few months and many hunters and locks were rapidly levelled in order to dominate PVP.

We toyed with this idea on a smaller level in my guild. We only have 100 accounts and about 50-60 active people but we found that people in teams that weren't doing as well got jealous of those that were in other teams.

They then got frustrated, stopped showing up, or demanded to be rotated into a team that were successful... and some teams fell apart and some people /gquit.

I think all of this theory about raid teams, rotation, subs outs, and fixed teams really is dependent on how dedicated your people are, the talent level of those involved, the effort people put into getting 5man blue gear, and just an overall feeling of a "guild > me" attitude.

Frankly, a lot of people in my guild don't have the right attitude to learn new content, they want it to be like it was pre-TBC when any schmuck could walk into a BWL, AQ40, or Naxx guild, get a 40man spot, and ride the coat tails of the other 39 members (In most cases there were 5-10 of these people in the old 40mans).

The smaller raid sizes really separate the "men from the boys". Since attitudes flair more and raids require everyone to be at the top of their game you really get a sense of who is a good player and who is just their for loot.

We have 5 Karazhan raids going at this point and some people are still being left out. I have no idea what's going to happen when we get to 25-man content and just consider myself lucky to even have gotten a spot in Karazhan as a Rogue. I can definitely see it getting kind of messy when it comes to condensing some combination of people from three Karazhan teams into a 25man team and it almost makes me long for the days of 8 x 5 raid groups.

It really irks me when i see people with guild sizes of 25-35 telling the members "not" in the normal 2 Karazhan groups to go form 5 mans and such. Especially if it is an issue of finding a tank out of guild to run one, since all the good tanks are already busy in Karazhan, that is no simple task. Really good tanks are very hard to find, and often anything less than a really good tank is no fun to do a 5 man with. I dont like slumming to get some lower city rep, when i could be doing something less painful. Talk about telling the last 5 kids picked for dodgeball to go play marbles in the corner.

It is hard to watch from the outside, while leveling my shaman, the less than desirable classes sit outside Karazhan. I know what they are thinking and how hard it is to wait for that boss where it helps to have more than one mage. Just like those extra 5-10 when we ran Naxx, i felt just as bad for them. It's a sad state of affairs to have to hold people in reserve, but expecting them to keep themselves busy while the fun zone is being run by the useful classes is less than sympathetic. Playing mom and pop is what you sign up for as a guild leader/officer, if you don't feel like fighting fires and dealing with drama, you will find your spare players moving on to greener pastures.

Personally I know our guild tries to rotate people in as best as they can, but even with that, we have people that don't make it in all night. We are banking on the new 25 man content to be the salvation of raiding. At least then we won't have to hold three of our five mages out every night.

The good stuff really is from Curator up. Everyone wants their T4 and Nightbane loot, but that's exactly where you can't have a halfassed group else they don't make it up. My 24 priest might see some playtime tonight.

Take it from a 70 priest rerolled from a shaman, don't roll a priest. Holy priests need help, and badly. Our 11, 21, 31 and 41 talents are all worthless. We scale like crap. 10% from +healing on power word:shield means that it gets 1-shotted and then some at 70. Fade is a set value that recovers after 10 seconds, so it's less useful than an aggro dump trinket. We spend 61 talent points for mediocre "tiny bit more mana efficiency to two spells" talents, while the hybrids spend 41 talent points for amazing healing talents. Our utility to a raid is only fort, spirit and shadow resistance, and that can be covered by one priest. Priests just plain suck right now, and that's why there are fewer and fewer of us.

When raid leaders start to realize the worthlessness of holy priests, they'll stop asking for us. I'm an officer in our guild, and I don't even think I deserve a raid spot over holy paladins. The shadowpriest along with 2 paladins can do much more amazing things.

I agree with you somewhat... but then again I don't.

Yes, I feel bad for people cause sitting out sucks. But at the same time people need to understand that a raid spot isn't a "birthright" (as someone else put it).

I don't suppose you've ever been a guild leader or an officer, but having been an officer in 2 guilds previously, a main raid leader for every guild I've been in, and a guild leader now I can say that any sympathy I feel towards people who sit out is greatly reduced than it once was.

The reason is because the officers and raid leaders have to put up with some much bullshit from people complaining and nagging them constantly that it becomes a serious hassle. Literally the minute I log in I get 10 tells from people. Generally 5 are complaints, 2 are showing me new gear/gems/enchants/etc, and 3 are just hellos.

On top of that, I spend so much time squashing fights between members, regulating schedules, coordinating raid logistics, updating the website, and trying to explain our policies that I barely have time to actually play the game. And its the same with most of my officers.

Frankly, and I hate to sound like an elitist jerk here, but any loss of fun you have sitting out of a raid is WAY less than the loss of fun that I have trying to get you INTO the raid.

And often times the people who are being sat out of a raid are being sat for some other reason, at least in my guild. Perhaps they ninja AFKed last time, have poor performance, didn't come prepared, had to leave early, had a bad attitude, whined and complained about getting a raid spot in the first place, were too busy doing "something else" to help the guild, etc.

People seem to take for granted the job that guild leaders and officers do. They just don't understand the amount of work it takes to make successful raids and keep the guild going. Yes, I decided to start my own guild and I knew what I was getting myself into. But that doesn't mean that every person in the guild can use that as an excuse to behave however they want.

Guild Leader Pro-Tip of the Day: Be quick with the /gkick button... if you sass-mouth me or rub me the wrong way I will generally just toss you rather than deal with it. Like I've told many ex-members, there is always someone who can do you job better than you, we'll find them. When members see that, they generally stay in line.

Thats basically the problem in a nutshell, if you're running 2 kara groups thats 4 tanks, and you're not going to bring more than 4 tanks to the 25 man stuff, hell you're not going to bring more than 2 to gruul.

We killed gruul once and nightbane 3 times last week, don't have a 4th kara group, and are already feeling the 25 man crunch. There is going to be a lot of unhappy people without spots. But in some regards we brought this upon ourselves.