As a Horde guild, pretty much all of the Shamans in my guild are pretty unsure about their role in Karazahn. As healers, they see the ridiculous mana efficiency/longevity of the Paladin,versus them chugging pots, plus the feeling that Pally buffs are better than totems since you can't really stack the groups in a 10 man. And that doesn't even start with the Pally bag of tricks on fights like Moroes or Maiden.

I think a lot of Horde Shamans have always had an inferiority complex regardng the "EZ-mode" Paladin, and so they were predisposed to feel this way when the Paladins finally reached 70 and started raiding. But that doesn't change the fact that we've had Kara raids with 0 shaman and 3 on the bench, while our 1 BE Pally will go every time - it's not all just paranoia on their part.

What can I tell them? As a raid leader, why should I bring a Resto/Elem. Shaman over another healing class if given the option not to? For those who have rerolled Dranei Shaman, why did you? What are you adding to 10-mans that you feel can't be gotten else?

I actually see enhancement as providing a nice combo of raw DPS/utility but I don't think that playstyle appeals to most of our Shamans.

Resto shamans should have a spot no problem simply due to bloodlust/heroism. Don't forget the amazing utility / synergy in resto and elemental trees that reduce the cost/cooldown of your shocks. Rank 1 earthshock as an interrupt was always among my favorite spells, and I nearly used it every cooldown. Grounding totem is amazing, so is tremor totem. For horde side with no fear ward, shamans are even more deeply entrenched in a raid group.

I've played a paladin, shaman and now priest. I know exactly what you mean about the EZ-mode paladin, and on paper they are certainly the best support healers. However, it's better to bring both the shaman and the paladin (or two paladins for buff stacking), plus a shadowpriest to give back mana/cover buffs. In this scenario you see the clearly missing healer is a priest. Druids can spec feral/resto for dps/offtank, emergency healing and utility. Holy priests are GG.

Bloodlust and Windfury Totem being the 2 blatant ones that stand out in my mind. Nothing a paladin has comes close to either of these as far as being able to increase damage output and threat by a ridiculous amount. As long as any of the encounters contain obstacles you have to complete in a specified amount of time, shamans will be welcome.

I am #1 in effective healing in Karazhan every week as a shaman, with very competent and Naxx/heroic/Kara-geared priests and druids alongside me.

On top of that, I offer Bloodlust for every boss, spell interrupts, and my totem buffs. For a Horde guild especially, properly-used Tremor totem (hint: re-drop it reactively) is huge. And so forth.

Would I bring 3 shamans to Karazhan? No, but I wouldn't bring 3 paladins either. Or 3 of anything. Would I bring 1 to every 10-man and 2 to every 25-man? Yes.

Precisely. Don't forget wrath of air for a caster-DPS heavy raid setup, in addition to windfury for a melee-DPS heavy raid setup, both of which are baseline for the shaman.

Resto shamans also bring mana tide and mana spring for the healing party, which is nice for other casters as well as healers. Holy priests only have shadowfiends for themselves. Again, the clear loser in the competition between healers is the priest.

Holy priests are GG? O.o No, no way. Why would you even say that? Priests bring the best heals in the game to your raid group, flash heals, renews, shields, new prayer of mending, not to mention group heals, spirit buff, improved fortitude (which I guess a shadow priest could have too) among other. We have an enhancement shaman at 70 now (alliance), main handing some crafted epic axe, and he is often among the top dps in the raid.

Slight derail: Gurg, if I may ask, do you know what percentage of your healing comes from LHW, HW, Chain heal, and Earth Shield? I have been very, very pleased with the performance of Chain heal w/ the improved talent and was just wondering how much you use it in Kara as compared to healing the MT/OT with Healing Way.

I continue to be impressed with everything that pallies can do. That said, for Karaz we have settled into a pretty comfortable groove of having 2 pure healers specced for healing (any class) 1 Shadow priest and a hybrid healer (enhance/feral/ret) for patch heals.

The 2 main healers get a load of mana from the shadow priest and frankly all of the classes seem pretty great at healing.

I am pretty confident that in 25 mans we will at the very least have 1 reso shaman and 1 enhancement shaman. Only time will tell about elemental but adding a second resto shaman will certainly not be an objectionable idea.

This is the 2nd thread you've cluttered up with whining about priests. Priests are fine, they have more healing tools than anyone else in the game, and can still exercise the most control over hp/s, hp/m, and their own mana regeneration rate. Being outclassed on an effective healing meter or whatever else doesn't mean your class is broken.

On topic, I really enjoy having a single shaman in Kara, and wish we had more shamans to play with in 25 mans (soon). I tend to agree that stacking 2 paladins in a Kara group is advantageous, whereas I would really only bring a single shaman, however - and thats unfortunate.

Hrm, I honestly can't say offhand. I very rarely use LHW unless it's an emergency situation where NS is down and I don't think my target will be alive in 2.5 seconds without at least a little healing in the interim.

I can let you know after tonight, but I suspect that over the course of a full clear, my healing is maybe 2/3 HW and 1/3 Chain Heal, with the breakdown varying a lot if you look at specific situations.

On multi-mob pulls I probably forego some potential healing from Earth Shield because I'm more concerned with control than heal volume -- I'll cast it on myself so that if I pull heal aggro from a ranged mob or something gets loose, I can heal uninterrupted. On a tank it'll just end up causing someone else to overheal a lot of the time anyway.

Now see, it's funny, cause before Alliance could get Shaman we always said "Damn, I wish we had a Shaman for X-totem".

Pallys are great and all, but having played with Pallys my entire raiding career and never having raided Horde-side pre-TBC, I have always seen Shamans as being easy-mode.

I guess it's just a case of the grass being greener on the other side.

Frankly, I think some of the Pally/Shaman mania will die down once people get used to raiding with both classes available now.

Little side note, and this is a running joke with my buddy... but I pronounce it "Shah-man" he pronounces it "Shay-man"... what do you guys think?

I'm not sure about this. Two resto shamans would be a waste, yes, but I run with one enhancement shaman in a (war/war/rog/hunt/sham) group, and myself in a caster group with two other healers and then the nukers, and it's wonderfully effective. The enhancement shaman is top 3 DPS, and adds a huge amount of damage via his buffs to that group. In the meantime, I can use wrath/tranquil appropriately, and mana spring/tide of course. And having two bloodlusts is immensely useful in a lot of situations.

The only fight in Kara where I'd prefer two paladins is Nightbane, but paladins on Nightbane are stupid in general. And people complain about warlocks on Aran.... sheesh.

Paladin's flash of light is more efficient than flash heal. Priests would only use flash heals in an emergency. Greater heal for priests is 2.5 seconds, but holy light is 2.0 seconds for paladins after the first cast (funny; have you seen the tier 4 set bonus for healing priests? LOL). Renew is not that awesome because it is mainly overheal on the tank. Prayer of mending can easily be replaced by shaman's chain heal.

Holy priests have the most variety of heals, but the poorest healing overall, and have little utility outside of some buffs that a shadowpriest can give as well. Paladins and shamans both bring better utility to groups while being healing specced, whereas a healing specced holy priest has less utility than a shadowpriest, paladin, shaman and druid. We're the "master" healers with gimmick talent heals like holy nova, lightwell, and circle of healing which are all pretty much worthless.

I'd love to tell you that priests are great for raids, but the truth of the matter is that we are completely dead last if you want the whole "healer package," because in the game of healbotting, shamans, paladins and druids can top the meters just as well as priests.

Awesome, I'd love to know. Usually I find myself in charge of healing everyone but the MT (which we have a Bal/Resto Healing Touch Spec druid doing the most of), and chain heal has been a real gem. As we don't usually have a paladin in the group, Earth Shield on myself + Nature's Guardian has saved my ass countless times :P

PoM is not "easily replaced" at all -- it's incredibly useful. And I like how you overlook PoH. Oh, and PW:S. Stop whining, and get out of a thread that has nothing to do with the topic you are trying to discuss. Not necessarily in that order.

Renamed thread, and moving to the Classes subforum.

Would be neat if they could cast Water Shield on other players and get mana back from it. Don't you think? Would certainly give them longevity in a raid environment.

Thanks for all the responses. Maybe our shamans need to pick it up, or just gear up. We generally don't have a shadow priest, so we're lacking that mana regen - I know one of our long time shamans was frustrated at being OOM after 2 pots while the 41/x/x Pally had 50% mana left. And I would consider him a good healer, at least on previous 40 man content.

Power Word: Shield is 1.3k baseline damage absorb at level 70, whereas a paladin blessing of protection stops all physical damage / removes all bleed at level 70. IMO it's worthwhile to compare the healers since we're discussing the value of one healer vs. another in a raid, particularly when compared to paladins. I have played all three healers (paladin, shaman then priest) to 60, have first hand experience healing with all of them, so I felt like drawing a comparison, while stating that shamans and paladins are more valuable (equally so).

As far as the shaman running OOM, that's bound to happen to any healer that's not a paladin and not receiving an innervate. A shaman's role is more loosely defined than the paladin's blessings/auras/spam heal, because they need to watch for opportunities to interrupt with earthshock, drop grounding/tremor totems as needed, and refresh earthshield, buff totems, bloodlust, etc.

Yeah, I'm sure part of it comes from not really having 2 shaman available on a regular basis. =/ Our regular shammy is slotted firmly as "hybrid" and has a mixed Enh/Resto spec at the moment.

Paladin buff stacking is obvious and extremely strong, and having 2 possible extra OTs is nice on trash (especially if you only have a single shackle in Kara).

Edit: sup spelling.

While I can see your point, I have to hand it to our priests, they keep up with the resto druids and holy pallys in our raids. I think there is still a purpose for holy priests in raids, they just don't have the dominance that they once had.

I remember back when resto druids couldn't do crap in raids. I'd get smoked by priests even in full healing gear when MC first came out. It's just a reshuffling of the deck really.

By the way, as was mentioned in another thread, Prayer of Mending stacks aggro on the tanks because it counts as a self heal. Lifebloom (to my knowledge) does as well. So tossing a PoM and LB on a tank right before a pull can help build aggro faster. Figured I'd toss that in there as a tidbit of usefulness that priests still have.

Shamans have by far the worst longevity of the healing classes due to lack of passive regeneration talent, but they also have the potential for incredible amounts of throughput while remaining efficient and group-stacking-independent with Chain Heal and Healing Way. Paladins are absurdly efficient but very inflexible healers (direct heal or direct heal?) and are great at tank-n-spank but aren't so hot at handling mass chaos damage, whereas Shamans practically beg for some sort of small AE on any encounter so they can use Chain Heal.