Black Temple is a 25-person raid dungeon located in Shadowmoon Valley.
Explore an ancient site steeped in Warcraft lore
Gain access to more than a hundred new rare and epic items, including tier-6 armor sets
Choose your path through a nonlinear level-70 raid dungeon, as you make your way to...
Face Illidan himself!
So here's a question.. what now. I have to assume tier 4 will be finished with Gruul and Magtheridon, so tier 5 would have to all come from Serpentshrine and Tempest Keep. Those aren't big upgrades for most classes, and we don't really know much about what T6 will be like. So is TBC basically 'finished' with Black Temple? Since we get to face Illidan I would think so. In fact it would make sense if with 2.1 they intend to basically have TBC done, save for the usual bug fixes and class balance issues, so they can start working on the next expansion asap, since they want a 1-year per expansion time frame.
If this patch comes out in the next month you can expect 99% of the guilds won't have seen more than 1 boss at best in serpentshrine, and nothing from tempest keep or mount hyjal. Magtheridon? Please.
Most of the current raid content is horribly overtuned if their plan was to launch a difficult tier 6 raid zone anytime soon. Maybe the new paradigm is release hella content and let it last for a long time (a bit more like EQ in a sense). I know that certain encounters in the game are currently "unkillable" and completely untuned (so definitely like EQ in that regard). So we'll see what black temple will be, but I'd expect itll be months.
Can't say this note is unexpected, but its borderline meaningless.
I wanted to let the raiding community know that we're going to be re-evaluating Magtheridon over the next few weeks. We had expected progress on this boss to go quicker than it has been. Our internal raid group has had success on this boss and we felt that it was tuned accurately. However, we're investigating the encounter to see why it's causing so many issues on live servers. While the encounter is supposed to be challenging, it's not supposed to be more difficult than the encounters in Serpentshrine. It is a low tier raid in Burning Crusade.
We're not going to do anything rash and make sweeping changes without testing them first. But we are keeping our eye on the progress being made in the encounter and considering making some minor tuning adjustments to bring the encounter in line with where it needs to be in the Burning Crusade's raid progression.
We're going to be doing a tuning pass on our dungeon and raid content to make sure that the point blank damage that Melee dps is taking (in particular rogues) isn't overly harsh.
For example, we'll be changing many monster cleaves to be a directional, 180 degree cone attack, rather than a 360 degree chain melee attack.
Expect these changes in a future patch. More details to come.
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I've put this in here rather than creating a new thread.
Both needed fixes that will hopefully be in shortly.
I wanted to let the raiding community know that we're going to be re-evaluating Magtheridon over the next few weeks. We had expected progress on this boss to go quicker than it has been. Our internal raid group has had success on this boss and we felt that it was tuned accurately. However, we're investigating the encounter to see why it's causing so many issues on live servers. While the encounter is supposed to be challenging, it's not supposed to be more difficult than the encounters in Serpentshrine. It is a low tier raid in Burning Crusade.
We're not going to do anything rash and make sweeping changes without testing them first. But we are keeping our eye on the progress being made in the encounter and considering making some minor tuning adjustments to bring the encounter in line with where it needs to be in the Burning Crusade's raid progression.
I was cheating because I just copy / pasted my post from my own forums after reading Quigon's post.
I do however agree with the sentiment of his post. Coming from a guild that is used to raiding 6-7 nights a week, we are really having issues with the fact that there is very little content we currently have access too. The Black Temple is so far off our radar at this point that for the first time in WoW we won't be waiting (or ready) for new content when it's patched in.
Does anyone else feel that the current progression path is overly restrictive? There is a huge bottleneck at the "lower tier" where we are looking at two Onyxia style instances (not even complete raid zones) and one ten-man instance. We had hoped we could run one 25 person raid and one 10 person raid once TBC came out. Now we are looking at either wiping on Gruul / Magtheridon with 25 of 40 people, or attempting to get two Karazhan raids going (still with 15-20 sitting out). Anyone else experiencing these issues?
Thats great news, my batphone signal is not very strong here at work I guess. We tried mag a few times, it is a relatively absurd lesson in futility, especially if what he drops are not massive upgrades. I'm sure he's "killable," and i'm sure if I tried hard enough I could win an olympic medal also. But both would take a lot of time and effort, and I play video games afterall.
Hyjal got A LOT to live up to. When I think end of WC3 campaign and then WoW added together, it's creampants-worthy. The end of WC3 campaign when all races banded together was one of the best moments in any strategy game.
I wonder what low-tier is in Blizzards eyes. Will Maggy be the new Onyxia over time? Would the entire tier 6 set be in Black Temple?
I'd like to add that I think the changes are excellent if they tune down some encounters.
Most people won't readily express when some things are too difficult, but I'm not worried about my ego here, and our guild has certainly proven they're capable and not scrubs. But, mMy opinion, and its just my opinion, but in terms of progress: Serpentshrine, Gruul, and Mag should all be dead by now by a lot of guilds, with ones like Nihilum pushing something like the last boss of tempest keep, or something in there.
It is very much to blizzard's advantage to have several lower end mobs that are killable by a majority of guilds. It also establishes a more solid raiding base (to which is maulgar, and maulgar only at the moment for most guilds).
There is something to be said about having some farmable content to kill each week, and then having an epic struggle a bit later. Naxxramas was extremely well tuned if their goal was to have a steep curve. But I don't get the point at making everything equally difficult and just making it a plateau. It caters well to guilds like many of ours, but not overall, and not necessarily to "fun or function."
Challenging encounters are what make this game great, but with a new raid dungeon coming out, and only 1-2 guilds even making a dent in the boss after Gruul? Yeah... not so much.
Maybe we could get some more progress on Magtheridon if the god damn trash didn't respawn so fucking quick. But that seems to be the name of the game in TBC. (Hello Lair Brute #100000000)
I thought we all already learned that quick respawning trash in raiding = bad in WoW 1.0. Can anyone justify it as anything else than an unnecessary time sink to limit attempts?
I'd like to add that I think the changes are excellent if they tune down some encounters.
Most people won't readily express when some things are too difficult, but I'm not worried about my ego here, and our guild has certainly proven they're capable and not scrubs. But, mMy opinion, and its just my opinion, but in terms of progress: Serpentshrine, Gruul, and Mag should all be dead by now by a lot of guilds, with ones like Nihilum pushing something like the last boss of tempest keep, or something in there.
It is very much to blizzard's advantage to have several lower end mobs that are killable by a majority of guilds. It also establishes a more solid raiding base (to which is maulgar, and maulgar only at the moment for most guilds).
There is something to be said about having some farmable content to kill each week, and then having an epic struggle a bit later. Naxxramas was extremely well tuned if their goal was to have a steep curve. But I don't get the point at making everything equally difficult and just making it a plateau. It caters well to guilds like many of ours, but not overall, and not necessarily to "fun or function."
Challenging encounters are what make this game great, but with a new raid dungeon coming out, and only 1-2 guilds even making a dent in the boss after Gruul? Yeah... not so much.
I think right here is the fundamental problem with TBC raiding. Most people saw the move to lower raid caps and figured we'd see MC/Onyxia 2.0. Free loot for all. Instead what they got is 25 man Naxxramas. If you couldn't get 40 people to show up and kill twin emps, you still can't get 25 people to show up and wipe to Gruul for 6 hours a night, and spend 2 or 3 more hours farming pots and repair gold.
Hyjal is the major thing that's making me want to push through all this raid content. Otherwise I might just take the casual route and stick to arena/heroics for months on end.
I'd like to add that I think the changes are excellent if they tune down some encounters.
Most people won't readily express when some things are too difficult, but I'm not worried about my ego here, and our guild has certainly proven they're capable and not scrubs. But, mMy opinion, and its just my opinion, but in terms of progress: Serpentshrine, Gruul, and Mag should all be dead by now by a lot of guilds, with ones like Nihilum pushing something like the last boss of tempest keep, or something in there.
I agree with you 100%, but I'd just like to point out that the fact that Gruul is overtuned is completely irrelevent from the overall skill of your guild. Simply inspecting the loot table makes it clear that his risk vs reward is absurdly skewed. I mean compare his loot and difficulty to Prince in Kara. The whole thing is a joke.
Also, I think your timelime might be a bit advanced. I think ideally at the moment Gruul kills would be pretty commonplace (1-2 per server) with the top guilds either working on or killing Magtheridon.
I think right here is the fundamental problem with TBC raiding. Most people saw the move to lower raid caps and figured we'd see MC/Onyxia 2.0. Free loot for all. Instead what they got is 25 man Naxxramas. If you couldn't get 40 people to show up and kill twin emps, you still can't get 25 people to show up and wipe to Gruul for 6 hours a night, and spend 2 or 3 more hours farming pots and repair gold.
That's a pretty gross oversimplification.
I expected more fights like 4H and Kel'Thuzad, except with a higher bar, since you can demand more individual execution and complexity from individual players without pushing difficulty into the realm of impossibility. I'd happily wipe for hours a night there, because that's fun, and knowing that the main obstacle between success and failure is our own execution provides motivation.
I'm not sure anyone expects or wants free loot. A 25-man Naxx sounds good to me. But not with Loatheb in every room.
02/23/07, 1:07 PM
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