Crtlaltdel

Hello EJ forums! Long time lurker, first time poster here. Alright, before you go all like crazy nut job on me, I use the Rogue Spreadsheet religiously, hell I'm on the spreadsheet more at work, than I am working lol. What this thread is for is to convince our Enhancement shaman that Windfury is indeed >> than GoA for all fights. I personally know that Windfury is better DPS, as does my other groupies. What we can't get our shaman to believe is that WF does actually out damage GoA.

His arguement is, more or less this, "WF does about the same damage as Deadly poison does MH over the course of a fight, while GoA buffs the other people, not able to get WF(Feral druid, and himself) and thus leads to higher DPS from those two. I don't see why I should gimp myself, and the druid just for you guys to do the same amount of damage with WF, that you could accomplish with GoA and deadly MH."

Our typical power 5 group setup is, 1 Enhance Shaman, 1 Feral Druid, Myself as Combat swords, 1 Combat Daggers rogue and recently respec'd from MS to Fury, DPS Warrior. WF is obviously WAY better for the warrior because he gets insane rage gen. from the extra attacks. Myself as well due to the change in sword spec. I can see where he is going by himself and the druid losing DPS from not getting GoA, but in the end the other 3 do ALOT more dps, so effectivly it evens out no?

Ok enough usless chatter, I'm calling all the knowledgeable people to this.

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Questions/concerns :

Why is Windfury/Deadly(OH) better for DPS, over Deadly(MH)/Instant(OH)/GoA? (Very open question I know sorry >_<)

GoA = crit for everyone, plus Attack Power for the Druid, and two rogues. Crit = More flurry procs for the warrior, and more unleashed rage for the shaman. How will losing crit for everyone benefit the group if only 3 people gain something from Windfury totem?

Shaman: "I've parsed logs, and watched charts, and you guys do the same damage with GoA + poisons, as you do with WF. Poisons seem to do X% of your damage which equals X% damage from windfury" Basically your damage gained =/= "our"(group) damage lost from losing GoA.

Sometimes you can get a bad string of no WF procs where as you can always have a talented GoA totem down for the entire fight. How does that even out in the end?
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These are just a few questions/arguments that our shaman has talked with us about. We've tried to get him to realize that WF will always >> GoA no matter what. Once again I know that WF > GoA for DPS I am just trying to have a valid arguement for our shaman friend with some sources as to why it is better to have WF over GoA.

Thank you in advance!

 

◊ Sarutobi

I would recomment lurking around the dung heap a bit and/or using the search function before creating a new thread for a question that's come up as many times as this.

EDIT: You might also want to take a look here.

 

Spades

I once posted this question in another thread as a joke and people still hated me for it.

There's so much math on this subject in various threads and spreadsheets that even one search will give you more than enough.

Also, your shaman friend is a Grade A idiot.

"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long."
-Rorschach, Watchmen

 

Malan

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
You'll find links to the specific math here.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

dukes

From the looks of it he wants to increase his damage more for damagemeters, and is just giving a reason that may look reasonable, but has been proven wrong more times than it's worth counting.

This is blatantly getting dung heaped, or at the least locked anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

 

Nite_Moogle

This is a true statement, and this post is extremely redundant.

 

Crtlaltdel

This was exactly the responce I was looking for. Thank you, and I'm not being sarcastic.

 

Totemologist

Without getting deep into the math that is already known, the simple answer is:
Weapon damage ranges and AP have pushed (even dagger rogues) into very high 'white damage' ranges. The poisons do not scale. Getting some extra poison procs versus frequently getting 400-1000 point white hits/crits is not much to compare.

Tell the Shaman he is there for utility first, don't be selfish

There is give and take, it does not matter where the damage is derived...only that it is higher in total between the two combos.

This might be, but I doubt it. I would advise you to test it yourself. Being that he is incentivized to keep GoA down, trust that his arguments will support it more. It is very hard for many Enhancement Shaman to feel 'justified' in their raid spot...they are the ones with something to prove so he will stack the deck in his favor.

As counterproductive as that sounds, it is true.

AP Wise? Better, it is always there.
Crit Wise? Diminished, you can go along string without an 'additional' Crit as well.


GoA is (largely) for Tanks

 

diospadre

WF is for tanks (the ones that matter).

 

Spades

I especially like this logic: "Crit = More flurry procs for the warrior"

~80 agi is like, what, 3% crit for Warriors? How is that in any way comparable to 20% extra MH swings that have a ~30% chance to crit themselves? Use brain! It there for reason!

"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long."
-Rorschach, Watchmen

 

◊ Praetorian

Why don't you read the many, many posts in this very forum exploring this cliched question, pick out the best arguments, and summarize them for your guildmate, with supporting links?

Oh, right, because it's much easier to ask us to do it for you!

 

Malan

I think we've beaten this to death already.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06