My 2 cents... even as a Warrior I prefer rogues to DPS warriors. The reason.... a DPS Warrior is rogue who can't vanish!

In 10 mans there is a greater chance of aggro issues (especially if starting a new Kara/ZA grp). I have seen many DPS warriors have an untimely crit string and eat it. Also with 10 man groups, there is a chance you may not even have a Pally for Salv. Without Salv, the warrior is at a HUGE disadvantage to rogue.

Another quick point or 2.
- rogues have the ability to stunlock most mobs in Kara which can help dramatically (hello Moroes adds)
- If you already have 1-2 prot warriors, the synergistic benefits of a DPS warrior are very limited.

When running Kara on my rogue, myself and the other rogue were consistently the top two spots on the damage meter. And the large number of interrupts and stuns at a rogues disposal are certainly a valuable utility. Plus, rogues make great icon-setters in parts of Kara where it's difficult for an un-stealthed person to see the whole room without body-pulling something.

Would that amount of utility justify bringing a class with below-average dps? Not really. But does it justify bringing the class that will most likely be putting out the most dps in the raid? Sure.

That said, I would encourage you as you are recruiting to focus less on achieving some "ideal" raid composition and focus more on getting dedicated, intelligent and capable players. Passing up a skilled person of any class so you can recruit some yokel with the specific spec you're looking for is a huge mistake. As long as you have the basics (1-2 tanks, 2-3 healers, the rest a good balance of skilled DPS) you shouldn't have any trouble.

well its better than not raiding, or raiding as a spec you dislike.

any way, to sum it up for the OP.

rogues do reasonable damage in 10 mans, and provide you with an interrupt.
rogues do exceptional damage in 25 mans, and provide you with an interrupt.
therefore basically, you do not need one for 10 man raiding, but if you intend to do 25 mans in the near future you may as well take a rogue with you and gear him up to make life easier in 25 man raids. to help gear up your rogues if you can find 3 highly active rogues you should never be short, one of our four rogues is out on holiday at the moment and even with three of us remaining we're still having to sit out for one another, as long as you have two avalable rogues for any given 25 man raid that's all you will need.

i wish you good luck finding 3 highly skilled and active rogues.

Most of these setups include druids so you don't strictly need to bring a rogue for that.

I've raided as both Rogue and Warrior (And warrior as both Tank and DPS)

In Kara, I'd definatley bring a rogue. Most adequete rogues can bring high DPS even without being buffed to the eyeballs. Good rogues who know their class are an asset, while not bringing as much utility as, say a shadowpriest. I think the lack of any group viability really warrant rogues substanitally more DPS, however.

I guess there's a problem with balance, here, though. Take away sunder armour, and a rogue looses a good deal of DPS. Give them windfury, and they'll really push silly numbers on DPS charts.

There's also the "problem" of a glut of rogues. There's a LOT of rogues out there at the moment, so they're nice filler. I've also noticed that when you find a good rogue, you hang onto them... PuG rogues have a bit of a reputation on my server at least, as being the most childish and greedy of all classes.

This is interesting, and not something I've really given much thought to before. Could this possibly warrant a discussion about ways for rogues to excel in 10-man raids when they don't have the crutches of 10+ debuffs to lean on?

For instance, several posters on this board would suggest (though it can't really be proven) that 11/27/23 is an excellent spec until you reach late T5 / T6 content, and then Combat pulls ahead. And if I understand right, this is due to the large amount of AP found on early rogue epics and the lack of Armor Penetration on nearly anything before MH/BT.

At a glimpse, it would appear that the passive Armor Penetration from Serrated Blades and the Hemo debuff itself would also play a big role in this consistently-observed phenomenon.

Maybe we could continue a discussion like this about ways rogues can tailor themselves to rock in 10-mans as much as possible? I know certain posters (like me) that will never set foot inside a 25-man raid would greatly benefit from it.

Weapons aside, most S1 gear is pretty horrible for rogues. It has way too much Stamina and Resilience, and very little Hit and AP.

More often than not, you'd be better off in well-balanced instance blues.

Speaking as a rogue member of a casual guild who is working on kara (downed aran for the second time last night), I think the player matters more than the class for Kara.

There are a couple of other rogues who raid with me, and I am always doing 30-40% or so more damage than they are. Last night we had a dagger rogue in the group, I didn't check his spec, but at the end of the night he was around 14% on the meter and I was at 23%...no way that should ever happen. True I have a little bit better gear than them, but they also don't spec for the raid and aren't big on my gear advice, but still...

I think there is definitely a place for 1-2 rogues in Kara. Stunlocking really helps with Moroes, especially when you are learning it. For Maiden, rogues have a tough time...they'll need HoTs going, and they'll need to know when to run and bandage, and make sure they bring holy protection pots until you get the encounter down and your healers get better gear...but I still do top DPS on that encounter. For opera, Romeo and Juliet is easier with rogues to kick Juliet. Also, kicking Aran helps a bunch.

But at the end of the day, if the rogue is doing poor DPS, they are a liability. But if they are doing poor DPS, it is the fault of the player (or they are badly undergeared compared to the raid). As a rogue I wish I brought more utility...can't heal, can't tank (except the occasional brief evasion-tank or stunlock-tanking adds in moroes), no buffs, etc. But they should be doing top DPS, and DPS does matter. Last night's Aran kill was much too close for comfort (1/2 the raid dead), and would have been much easier with a bit more DPS.

So at the end of the day, you will want a balanced group for Kara (at the least it cuts down on sharding drops, I hate that), but most important make sure you get players you can count on to do their jobs. This means the player is far more important than the class. Every class is going to bring something to a raid group...it's up to the player to make sure that happens.

i think this post most adequately illustrates the importance of a proper pve spec.

when looking for rogues look for ones with a suitable pve spec (usually one with at least 20 points in combat)
as for gear, when i started doing karazhan i had 1.3k ap, 200ish hit rating and 20% crit. this was before the world of wellfare epics. however for enchants and gems, do not be put off by rogues using 24ap on gloves instead of 15agi or 3hit3agi gems instead of 4hit4agi gems etc. i wouldn't personally spend alot of money enchanting blue gear. i mean, i didnt get mongoose on my vindicator brand (partially because nobody on the server had it) and its an expensive enchant for an item that will be replaced in the near future. however, beware of people using 6 crit gems or 6ap/3crit etc, they're sub par even if you're enchanting gear on the cheap.

be ruthless with your trialists aswell, as said before a good rogue is an irriplacable asset. a bad rogue however, is an utter waste of a raid spot.

It's not so much a question of rogus vs non rogue, it is a matter of caster vs physical dps.

For a caster to excel in 10 mans, what do they need? Well they need a shadow priest, because of misery and shadow weaving. An elemental shaman would also be really swell, but what else is needed? Moonkin? Not really, 5% crit isn't that huge. A warlock for curses? Sure a warlock curse is pretty advantageous, but generally the first is shadow.

What does a physical class need? Full sunders, needing a warrior, an enhancement shaman (or at least a resto) and then of course anything you can get to debuff armor. CoR, expose weakness, fairie fire, a feral druid helps, etc. But really for a rogue to do his best, he needs both a warrior and shaman in his group. A warrior has to have a shaman, and a shaman really needs a warrior too. Feral for 10 mans just naturally fits in there too. Hemo rogue also works. While all a caster needs really is a shadow priest. A lock or ele shaman brings benefits, but they are lesser benefits.

This is where you should've hit "Back" on your browser.

Given equal gear and skill levels, they will top DMs in every 10-man environment, and this has been true from running Kara two weeks after TBC launched through speed-running Z'A today.