Sunwell Patterns

Mideci · 04/09/08, 10:56 PM

So, had the Essence of the Immortals questline been left in the game, each server would have literally scores of Sunwell craftable patterns by now. Instead, most servers have tiny handfuls due to what is apparently a very low drop rate and the removal of said quest line.

While I realize we don't have any magical insight into the thinking that is Blizzard, should we hold out hope that pattern drop rates off the Sunwell trash will be upped significantly -- or bosses for that matter -- to compensate for the "lost patterns"?

Phantasie · 04/09/08, 11:33 PM

Bosses drop extra loot, i figure it evens out. I mean probably better off to not have guild full of the best chest/gloves/helms in the game 2 weeks after the patch release. `

♦ Penguin · 04/09/08, 11:48 PM

It's almost as if they anticipated people killing the trash over and over for a few months. "Farming" as it were.

Rokh · 04/10/08, 1:03 AM

I don't think my server has a single pattern yet.

Redd · 04/10/08, 1:13 AM

Originally Posted by Phantasie

Bosses drop extra loot, i figure it evens out. I mean probably better off to not have guild full of the best chest/gloves/helms in the game 2 weeks after the patch release. `

Ya some guilds having the best chest/gloves/helms in the game because they got lucky is a much better system. Insert new versions of warglaives arguments here.

Soralin · 04/10/08, 1:28 AM

I would hope that Blizzard realises that the sudden influx of patterns they had planned with the Essences of Immortals isn't going to happen anymore and that they need to adjust the droprate accordingly from trash.

Phantasie · 04/10/08, 1:50 AM

Originally Posted by Redd

Ya some guilds having the best chest/gloves/helms in the game because they got lucky is a much better system. Insert new versions of warglaives arguments here.

hey, random is random. we have 6 mainhands and 1 offhand

Only 1 sunwell pattern though. Game has been like this since the beginning. Guess if a guild can zone into Sunwell all the patterns should just appear in their pack?

Yea upgrades like that can greatly swing fights, but game has always been like this. They could go to an all token system where illidan drops 1/5th of a glaive each kill to make it truely fair (as far as time=reward), but they never will. Random is fair to Blizzard as they need to keep everything even as possible for casual/hardcores a like - and random is their answer.

/sidetrack
And I am still very skeptical of blizzards random number generator. We get nonstop rogue/mage/druid through hyjal,BT,sunwell. Its getting to be 9 out of 10 of our first t6 pieces for each slot is for those classes. Druids have feral/moonkin/resto before 4 other classes have a single main spec piece among the guild. I almost feel that if we changed our raid time from the normal PM timeslot to some kind of AM raid, we'd magically get different loot.

Krazen · 04/10/08, 2:09 AM

Originally Posted by Rokh

I don't think my server has a single pattern yet.

We've gotten quite a few, including my robes. A lot of duplicate plate glove patterns tho.

♦ Penguin · 04/10/08, 2:45 AM

Do we really need yet another random loot is random thread? We already have (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t23187-l...ng_warglaives/) for RNG discussion/bitching. What was this thread supposed to accomplish beyond that?

darkhorse · 04/10/08, 2:52 AM

The main thread was about blizzards intentions, others brought the RNG into the discussion.

Initially on the PTR there was a quest to hand in an "Essence of the Immortals" (Dropped of all SW bosses and the end bosses of SSC, TK, Hyjal & BT. As a reward you received some epic gems, flasks & a new SW pattern. The gate openings were also directly related to this. Blizzard then changed the gate "opening method" and removed the quest.

However the down side to this, was that they removed a large income of patterns, flasks & gems. As any BT clearing guild could easily farm 4 of these tokens (hence 4 patterns) a week before stepping into SW. The suggestion was that blizzard should up the pattern drop rate so the flow through can occur as intended with the original quest.

Cyn · 04/10/08, 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by Phantasie

They could go to an all token system where illidan drops 1/5th of a glaive each kill to make it truely fair (as far as time=reward), but they never will.

They did, it's called [Shard of Azzinoth].
Unfortunately it's bugged and they forgot the on use to combine them together, wonder if that bug has been reported.

Prinsesa · 04/10/08, 3:02 AM

Sunwell is rather "special" (if this thread is to be believed) because unlike MH/BT, it doesn't have a whole lot of trash to drop gems/patterns from.

Ostensibly, the Essence of the Immortals questline was supposed to remedy this by giving a guild alternate and relatively assured shots at patterns, but with the removal of that quest, we're stuck with the rarity of previous raid patterns with nowhere near the same amount of trash available.

Disclaimer: Having never been to Sunwell myself, I'm not really in a position to verify this, and this is only based on the "lots before Kalecgos, then nothing until 2 pulls to Felmyst/Twins" anecdotes I've been hearing passed around for a while.

Furio · 04/10/08, 3:10 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Sunwell is rather "special" (if this thread is to be believed) because unlike MH/BT, it doesn't have a whole lot of trash to drop gems/patterns from.

Ostensibly, the Essence of the Immortals questline was supposed to remedy this by giving a guild alternate and relatively assured shots at patterns, but with the removal of that quest, we're stuck with the rarity of previous raid patterns with nowhere near the same amount of trash available.

Disclaimer: Having never been to Sunwell myself, I'm not really in a position to verify this, and this is only based on the "lots before Kalecgos, then nothing until 2 pulls to Felmyst/Twins" anecdotes I've been hearing passed around for a while.

There are seven (I think) mobs between Kalecgos and Brutallus. None between Brutallus and Felmyst. There is a longish gauntlet (does not drop loot) and about twenty other loot dropping mobs between Felmyst and Twins.

It's rather sad that top guilds are quite literally penalized for being able to kill bosses before their associated trash resets. I had hoped the post Felmyst trash would have a noticeably greater drop rate to balance the lack of farming pre-Kalecgos trash. So far, that does not appear to be the case.

Inoko · 04/10/08, 3:14 AM

Originally Posted by Furio

There are seven (I think) mobs between Kalecgos and Brutallus. None between Brutallus and Felmyst. There is a longish gauntlet (does not drop loot) and about twenty other loot dropping mobs between Felmyst and Twins.

It's rather sad that top guilds are quite literally penalized for being able to kill bosses before their associated trash resets. I had hoped the post Felmyst trash would have a noticeably greater drop rate to balance the lack of farming pre-Kalecgos trash. So far, that does not appear to be the case.

You're not being penalized. You have the option not to kill those bosses and instead wait. Instead you're choosing that your time is worth more than trash farming. As a guild that can do these bosses like that, you have more choices than a guild that can't. They (ostentatiously) don't get the chance at Kalecgos' loot table*. You get to pick "Get his loot now or wait for the trash respawn." More choices. Maybe not choices you'd like, but more choices.

* The assumption here is that if a guild can kill a boss ever, they should be able to do it before the boss' associated trash re spawns. After all, it's not as if the bosses get easier with each wipe to them or every time the trash re spawns.

Clandestine · 04/10/08, 3:33 AM

Is there any real purpose to this thread other than to complain? Random number generator is random, etc. It's pure speculation that Blizzard intended the overall rate of saturation to be higher than it is due to essence of the immortals - the drop rate on non-pattern epics was definitely radically decreased between PTR and live.

We've gotten quite a few, including my robes. A lot of duplicate plate glove patterns tho

COOL! We care, trust me!

Sunwell is rather "special" (if this thread is to be believed) because unlike MH/BT, it doesn't have a whole lot of trash to drop gems/patterns from.

Ostensibly, the Essence of the Immortals questline was supposed to remedy this by giving a guild alternate and relatively assured shots at patterns, but with the removal of that quest, we're stuck with the rarity of previous raid patterns with nowhere near the same amount of trash available.

Disclaimer: Having never been to Sunwell myself, I'm not really in a position to verify this, and this is only based on the "lots before Kalecgos, then nothing until 2 pulls to Felmyst/Twins" anecdotes I've been hearing passed around for a while.

Why are you posting second-hand speculation on something that you have no experience with?

Prinsesa · 04/10/08, 4:05 AM

Why are you posting second-hand speculation on something that you have no experience with?

I specifically indicated that I did not have experience with it with the intent of having my post being taken with a (relatively large) grain of salt, but it's really not that hard to put two and two together:

Sunwell is regarded as having less trash than previous raids.
PTR questline rewards raiders with guaranteed patterns, but is pulled right before live.
No indications of pattern drop rate increases between PTR and live.
Someone makes a thread about pattern drops.
Therefore, pattern drops are too few and far between, given the amount of trash and the lack of the questline.

Even without experience in Sunwell, this is just plain logic.

Rokh · 04/10/08, 4:06 AM

Originally Posted by Clandestine

Is there any real purpose to this thread other than to complain? Random number generator is random, etc. It's pure speculation that Blizzard intended the overall rate of saturation to be higher than it is due to essence of the immortals - the drop rate on non-pattern epics was definitely radically decreased between PTR and live.

Yeah, it seems more like an official forums post than an EJ post, honestly.

koaschten · 04/10/08, 5:33 AM

Clandestine, Prinsesa's point is perfectly ok.

The removal of the Essence of the Immortal Quest should have led to the implementation of a pattern drop per sunwell boss to level the average drop rate of named patterns. There indeed ARE guilds that don't have to kill trash multiple times to down a boss in Sunwell Plateau.

Having farmed trash for 3 days for each 5+ hours as a regular raid schedule i can assure you, either the RNG hates us badly or considered 2 pattern more than enough. 15 hours of trash clearing relates to more than 20 full clears of the Kalecgos trash.

Guess it can be summed up to:
It was ok to level the "World first" race by changing the gate mechanic, but please if you let the RNG play with us... up the chance to roll the dice.

Clandestine · 04/10/08, 5:59 AM

Your point relies on the assumption that the number of patterns people are getting right now are lower than intended. Unless there is a Blizzard employee present, no one is qualified to make that assumption. There is no point to argue on the subject, there are only the following facts: Sunwell patterns either drop as frequently or less frequently than they did on the PTR, and Sunwell patterns are no longer obtainable through Essence of the Immortal turn-ins. There is absolutely nothing to debate on the subject and nothing constructive can be accomplished by complaining about it. There is no basis in fact or logic to stating that since Sunwell patterns are not more common than they were on the PTR, and are no longer obtainable through Essence of the Immortal turn-ins, they should now be guaranteed drops from bosses.

I am not sure what your point is by stating that there are guilds which do not have to kill trash multiple times to down a boss. I am well aware of this.

Your own experience with Sunwell patterns is irrelevant, as is my guild's experience.

This thread is really quite pointless.

Prinsesa · 04/10/08, 6:03 AM

The removal of the Essence of the Immortal Quest should have led to the implementation of a pattern drop per boss to level the average drop rate of named patterns. There indeed ARE guilds that don't have to kill trash multiple times to down a boss in Sunwell Plateau.

My first thought was: "Yeah, that's right, just let the gems and patterns drop from all the bosses that would've dropped an Essence of the Immortals in the first place."

Then it hit me: Besides removing the "race" aspect of the gate opening, could Blizzard have pulled the quest line because they did not want T5 guilds to have access to Sunwell patterns? None of the Engineering Goggles require Sunmotes, and neither do the Blacksmithing/Leatherworking chestpieces.

Dancing Wu Li Master · 04/10/08, 6:17 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Then it hit me: Besides removing the "race" aspect of the gate opening, could Blizzard have pulled the quest line because they did not want T5 guilds to have access to Sunwell patterns? None of the Engineering Goggles require Sunmotes, and neither do the Blacksmithing/Leatherworking chestpieces.

They could have made the Essences only drop from T6 (or Sunwell, or Sunwell+Illidan+Archimonde, or whatever).

It's really idle speculation though.

Kaubel · 04/10/08, 8:33 AM

So drop rates are low. Discuss it in raid chat, not here.