We wiped on Loatheb the first time we pulled in 10-man - they key is to lock some of your raid outside the door (It comes down immediately, not a few seconds later like many boss' doors).
I reached a breaking point with Inscription this past week. As recommended by this thread, I keep one of every Major glyph that I've discovered on the AH at all times. I don't bother with Minor glyphs or trainer glyphs. The Majors go for about 40g on average, with some of the really good ones like Vigor and Obliterate going for 70g. I sell 5 or 6 glyphs a day, and that's on a low pop server. The cheapest herbs are 30g a stack, and one stack results in 3 or 4 glyphs. Herbalism just isn't worth my time anymore.
IMO Save your Inks etc. for the duel spec patch. There will be a rush for glyphs then. (and you save your time from listing and relisting now) and prices should jump a little due to increased demand.
Originally Posted by Enova
Alchemy really isn't that big of a money maker anymore. On my server, flasks sometimes even sell for less than the herb costs. This has made selling herbs very profitable for me. And while some of the best selling alchemists buy whole stacks of my auctions, the average guy who just wants mats so a friend can make a flask for him is more than happy to buy the herbs split in the exact size he needs, even at a higher price. Why? Because it's more convenient.
You can sometimes get 30% or so more than you would otherwise get for listing the same herbs in full stacks.
I usually have the herbs on a snatch list of my auctioneer, and pick them up when they are cheap. I then compare herb prices and flask prices before raid times 9roughly 2 hours before common raid times) and list the flasks then. I sell all of them within hours and make some profit. Its minor compared to BC though.
I have actually had more profit made form BC flasks right now. I can usually craft them for about 10g and they sell for 20g+ (especially relentless assault)
Originally Posted by astearns
And check the AH for BC blue gems listed under the vendor price. Since they really aren't needed for JC levelling any more, I'm assuming the Adamantite prospectors are just dumping them without paying attention to the vendor value.
I routinely purchase BC rare gems (and forest emeralds) for vendoring. One thing to keep in mind is for some (specifically the forest emerald) the cut version vendors for more gold.
Plz, no more "defense cap"! Use the word "uncrittable"
Originally Posted by Shadai
MITIGATION AND DEFENSE
Defense cap
The defense cap is actually misnomer. Its not really a cap at all, merely the amount of defense you need to push boss crits off the table. There is no “cap” to defense, but the defense “cap” commonly refers to this number that makes you uncrittable.
There are two numbers that are important, Defense Skill and Defense Rating:
Defense Rating is what you will commonly find on gear. 4.91850 defense rating equals one point of defense skill.
Defense Skill is the number found on your character sheet. A level 80 character without any additional Defense Rating has 400 Defense Skill.
The number you’re shooting for to become uncrittable is 540 defense SKILL.
Note that’s 540 skill, not rating. You need about 690 rating (at level 80) to hit that from the 400 defense skill a level 80 character will have.
However you get your skill is up to you. Gear is easily obtainable between instances and crafting gear. If you got some spare sockets, use [Thick Autumn's Glow] to help obtain the cap. If you only need a few more points, there are several good gems that add 8 defense and another stat.
Defense will also add to avoidance. See the Avoidance section below.
Can we stop saying defense cap? I think most people know this is a misnomer (even the OP mentioned this!), and a very misleading one. It makes new tanks think that any defense higher than 540 is useless, which is false. This term was probably invented by DPSers, who have hit cap. Indeed, any hit in excess of hit cap is useless, so hit cap is a totally correct term.
All along during TBC, we use the terms "uncrittable" or "crit immune", which are very good terms indicating that you cannot be critically hit by the boss. Most long-time tanks are still sticking to the term uncritable. I don't know why I see so many "defense cap" in the forum now, including the stickies.
Can we stop saying defense cap? I think most people know this is a misnomer (even the OP mentioned this!), and a very misleading one. It makes new tanks think that any defense higher than 540 is useless, which is false. This term was probably invented by DPSers, who have hit cap. Indeed, any hit in excess of hit cap is useless, so hit cap is a totally correct term.
All along during TBC, we use the terms "uncritable" or "crit immune", which are very good terms indicating that you cannot be critically hit by the boss. Most long-time tanks are still sticking to the term uncritable. I don't know why I see so many "defense cap" in the forum now, including the stickies.
I don't know where you were in TBC or in WoTLK right now but it is much easier to say 540 is the defense cap. I realize that means you can not go past 540 defense even though you can but why would you want to at this point? I highly doubt new tanks will find a real reason to go beyond 540 defense. This is the same as hit cap, a point where using said stat doesn't effect the user by a noticeable margin. You can always go behind 8% hit for the 17% miss immune(?) amount and obviously going beyond 17% is useless unless all of Ulduar lowers your chance to hit for whatever reason. I'm just saying that there is no reason to say 540 is crit immune, unless you can prove to me that going beyond 540 defense is something we all may want to do. I mean by this that in the DPS way of life you would say 8% is hit cap because its almost pointless to go beyond 8%, the same should apply to defense.
The big picture on hit is that a large portion of your attacks (special melee) don't miss, seeing as how the largest portion of Death Knight DPS is special melee we don't want to waste sockets or use sub-par gear going for 17%.
The big picture on defense is that no attacks can hit you critically which will most likely kill you, leading to a wipe and adding downtime to your raid. What does adding more defense do for a tank? Increase your chance to avoid an attack by a small amount? You could use 16 dodge gems and receive better results if you really wanted to stack avoidance.
Has anyone actually tried Mortal Strike + Bloodthirst yet?
This is the build I was thinking of, mainly based on arms rotations because of less immediately available fury talents. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
My main dilema is whether or not MS and BT share the same cooldown. Thoughts?
I don't know where you were in TBC or in WoTLK right now but it is much easier to say 540 is the defense cap. I realize that means you can not go past 540 defense even though you can but why would you want to at this point? I highly doubt new tanks will find a real reason to go beyond 540 defense. This is the same as hit cap, a point where using said stat doesn't effect the user by a noticeable margin. You can always go behind 8% hit for the 17% miss immune(?) amount and obviously going beyond 17% is useless unless all of Ulduar lowers your chance to hit for whatever reason. I'm just saying that there is no reason to say 540 is crit immune, unless you can prove to me that going beyond 540 defense is something we all may want to do. I mean by this that in the DPS way of life you would say 8% is hit cap because its almost pointless to go beyond 8%, the same should apply to defense.
The big picture on hit is that a large portion of your attacks (special melee) don't miss, seeing as how the largest portion of Death Knight DPS is special melee we don't want to waste sockets or use sub-par gear going for 17%.
The big picture on defense is that no attacks can hit you critically which will most likely kill you, leading to a wipe and adding downtime to your raid. What does adding more defense do for a tank? Increase your chance to avoid an attack by a small amount? You could use 16 dodge gems and receive better results if you really wanted to stack avoidance.
I know I've seen your user name on the board multiple times, so I can only conclude that you're a complete idiot. Defense is avoidance. Yes, it is less avoidance than dodge per rating point, but that in no way implies that 540 is the cap for avoidance. Defense has other benefits as well, it increases the amount mitigated by Icebound Fortitude. That alone could cause players to value it over dodge. Even if you only value straight avoidance, though, you could easily find yourself over 540 defense and be happy about it due to particular drops or itemization.
540 is not a cap, and everyone that has done any sort of analysis knows this.
I know I've seen your user name on the board multiple times, so I can only conclude that you're a complete idiot. Defense is avoidance. Yes, it is less avoidance than dodge per rating point, but that in no way implies that 540 is the cap for avoidance. Defense has other benefits as well, it increases the amount mitigated by Icebound Fortitude. That alone could cause players to value it over dodge. Even if you only value straight avoidance, though, you could easily find yourself over 540 defense and be happy about it due to particular drops or itemization.
540 is not a cap, and everyone that has done any sort of analysis knows this.
The only reason you would intentionally go beyond 540 defense is to improve the amount of mitigation IBF grants you, improving the mitigation of a 12-21 second duration of a one minute cooldown is not worth it, plain and simple. You would then look at the second reason to increase your defense beyond 540, avoidance, we both stated that dodge just much more avoidance then defense will so that is obviously out of the question too.
This is the reason I, and like many others, refer to 540 defense as the cap. This is a rather pointless argument and doesn't require insults to discuss.
After playing as both arms and fury it really seems the four set bonus is far more valuable for arms where rage is much harder to come by and all GCDs must be utilized. It's nice for fury but I'll drop it in a heart beat for best in slot items once our hunters and rogues already have them. Personally I wouldn't drop the four set bonus for the items you've mentioned but I would for the blue aspect helm, frost adroit handguards, and chestguard of the recluse. At a quick glance at a recent wws it looks like the four set bonus procs about an average of eight times in a three minute fight. Not a tremendous amount of rage saved but slightly helpful none the less, sort of like unbridled wrath, not much of a dps incease.
yea thats what i thought but i wanted to be positive. but you will have to explain to me why blue aspect helm over obsidean greathelm.
OS helm
98 strength =196 AP
76 crit rating
59 expertise
meta
and another socket (same as blue aspect helm)
socket bonus = 8 strength = 16 AP
overall being 212 AP
Blue Aspect helm
202 AP
58 crit rating
51 haste
+58 agility = not sure how much crit rating O_O
metal
and another socket (same)
+4 haste rating socket bonus
gems arent a problem for me as i am a JC so 27 strength gem will be what i use.
i cant see how it is possible that blue aspect helm > Obsidean greathelm
i havent even talked about armor that will increase attack power due to ATT or the fact that it has 106 strength on it total not including the gems which will be effected by kings in a raid giving you more AP.
obsidean greathelm = more AP/strength and more expertise
blue aspect helm = more crit and haste
i realize thats not full caclculations but just the rough idea really seems to convince me.
The only reason you would intentionally go beyond 540 defense is to improve the amount of mitigation IBF grants you, improving the mitigation of a 12-21 second duration of a one minute cooldown is not worth it, plain and simple. You would then look at the second reason to increase your defense beyond 540, avoidance, we both stated that dodge just much more avoidance then defense will so that is obviously out of the question too.
This is the reason I, and like many others, refer to 540 defense as the cap. This is a rather pointless argument and doesn't require insults to discuss.
It's hard to agree with either of those points.
It is foolish to dismiss improving mitigation of a buff that can have a > 1/3 uptime. What you are naively assuming may in fact be accurate, but actual analysis is needed, not handwavy dismissals.
Dodge does provide more avoidance than defense, but as defense provides more avoidance than parry (to put things into perspective), you should again please provide some actual analysis (including: how the two stats are affected differently by diminishing returns) rather than this "obviously out of the question" handwaving.
It doesn't require insults, but it does require actual analysis, please. If that has already been done, you could even provide a link (for my education!).
The only reason you would intentionally go beyond 540 defense is to improve the amount of mitigation IBF grants you, improving the mitigation of a 12-21 second duration of a one minute cooldown is not worth it, plain and simple. You would then look at the second reason to increase your defense beyond 540, avoidance, we both stated that dodge just much more avoidance then defense will so that is obviously out of the question too.
This is the reason I, and like many others, refer to 540 defense as the cap. This is a rather pointless argument and doesn't require insults to discuss.
This has been gone over in the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread but from a sheer "take less damage" standpoint, defense is a better stat than dodge. The avoidance difference is miniscule, and the increased IBF mitigation is increased mitigation of 1/4th of the incoming damage at least.
The basic argument is 1% IBF mitigation equals at least .2% avoidance, given that IBF is up 12 seconds (minimum) per minute. If it's up less, then you'd be valuing saving IBF more than using it every cooldown, and the mitigation it provides would be worth *more* than popping it every minute.
Point for point, Defense gives you more (IBF mitigation% / 5) + avoidance% than Dodge does sheer avoidance%, therefore ignoring defense past 540 as a DK is not a wise choice.
Partial source:
Originally Posted by Lazare
However, once you include IBF scaling, it's hard to see how you can avoid the conclusion that defence wins. You'd have to assume that 1% increased damage reduction on IBF was worth only 0.11% avoidance for dodge to still win. Or to put it another way, IBF would have to be up for only 11% of all incoming damage - when just hitting the button every cooldown should average 20%, worst case. Unless I'm missing something basic, I don't see how dodge can still win.
The only reason you would intentionally go beyond 540 defense is to improve the amount of mitigation IBF grants you, improving the mitigation of a 12-21 second duration of a one minute cooldown is not worth it, plain and simple. You would then look at the second reason to increase your defense beyond 540, avoidance, we both stated that dodge just much more avoidance then defense will so that is obviously out of the question too.
This is the reason I, and like many others, refer to 540 defense as the cap. This is a rather pointless argument and doesn't require insults to discuss.
The others have already pointed out how wrong this is. However, even if IBF is not considered, comparing a stat that still helps tremendously (almost as much as dodge rating) at its "not a cap" to hit rating, which helps exactly nothing at its cap, is just unconscionable. Calling it a cap is begging to confuse and misinform any new death knight, convincing them that they should never go above 540 at the expense of being laughed at, that they should trade 90 defense rating for 10 dodge, and to make other poor decisions. It is not a cap, in any way, and the only reason "many others" call it that is because it has been ingrained in their heads by people that don't know what they're talking about.
Thinking as a healer, I'd rather DKs think of Defense as a cap, so they make sure it is reached before anything else.
I would hope no one would laugh at a DK for going past 540 defense, because they would be wrong. However, if a DK was stacking defense well past 540, then he may deserve a few laughs.
Anyway, personally once uncrittable is reached aka "the defense cap", as a healer I prefer to see stamina.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I hope tanks reading this go further in their search of healer opinions; there is an equal number of healers whining for more tank avoidance.
Mentioning whether to tank with less than 540 defense is a waste of our attention. Wanting to call it a cap for that reason is unbelievably naive. If you want to give that a name, call it a floor.
Can we stop saying defense cap? I think most people know this is a misnomer (even the OP mentioned this!), and a very misleading one. It makes new tanks think that any defense higher than 540 is useless, which is false. This term was probably invented by DPSers, who have hit cap. Indeed, any hit in excess of hit cap is useless, so hit cap is a totally correct term.
All along during TBC, we use the terms "uncritable" or "crit immune", which are very good terms indicating that you cannot be critically hit by the boss. Most long-time tanks are still sticking to the term uncritable. I don't know why I see so many "defense cap" in the forum now, including the stickies.
Okay, as far as I can tell this is the post that started all of this nonsense.
First of all, read what I wrote. Then, Read it again.
I at no point call it a defense cap except for the "title". And I called it "Defense Cap" for one very important reason. Tanking vets know what I'm talking about even though it is not called this, as do the 98% of noobs that ALL think its called "Defense Cap". Hell, just the other day I was in getting into a Naxx 25 raid and when the raid leader was quizzing me about my experience and gear he asked "Your Defense capped, right?"
Look I get its frustrating to hear it called something its not. However if you don't spell it out for the new guys then they will start populating threads with questions like "What is the defense cap? I read the FAQ but it didn't say anything about it, lol." It was questions such as these that prompted me to write this in the first place.
Secondly, after that initial title, I quickly dissuade AND advise that is is not called a cap. Furthermore, at no point in the entire article after that title do I refer to it as such. This entire argument is silly, pointless and moot.
Furthermore, RIGHT IN THE VERY SAME SECTION I tell people that defense adds to avoidance. And further down I explain point for point how much each is worth. I also tell people about IBF and exactly how much it scales per point of defense.
So. Read the entire thing please. All of your concerns (and the ones that followed for the next 4 or 5 posts) are covered. If there is something that I'm missing, I will gladly fix it.
Cheers.
Last edited by Shadai : 02/22/09 at 12:01 PM.
Reason: for clarity
A slightly other question, I've just gathered my 4th part of the warrior T7 set and I was wondering, how good is that 4 part bonus ? Does it proc alot / has a hidden CD? Can't seem to find any proper data on it :/
hi,
I was wondering if there was a thread somewhere which sums up all that you basically need to know for playing a fury warrior.
I remember that there once was such a thread to which i could redirect most people that had questions or no idea of a fury warrior.
Playing my warrior now since vanilla i really don't have read through everything in this forum and just catch up with the latest batch of news, but it is kind of inconvenient if you want to redirect someone to this forum and he asks about where the information that he is supposed to read up upon is located at.
so my simple questions :
1. Is there a thread which answers the most basic question about fury warrior theorycraft ?
2. If not, is there a reason no such thread exists anymore
K well i am a lvl 80 night elf TG warrior. Fairly well geared except for a few epic lvl 70 pieces i am wearing. My rotation is BT, WW, slam on crit, and heroic strike as a rage dump. My problem is I am not able to pull off more than about 1900 to 2k dmg in 10man naxx and no more than 2.5k in 25 man naxx. I have seen other fury warrior putting out twice my numbers and i cannot seem to figure out how. Any help would be very appreciative. Thanks alot.
Thanks for the great post Bink but I got a couple questions.
How exhaustive is your calculation of the lightning bolt glyph being better than the flametongue glyph and at what spell power point should one drop chain lightning for purely lightning bolt due to shamanism affecting the spell power coefficient of lightning bolt?
02/15/09, 6:29 PM
